Girl Altar Servers?

[FenianMan]

The vocations crisis in the priesthood is also artificially created by radicals in charge of vocations offices and seminaries. Good, orthodox young men are rejected for being “rigid”. Those who show devotion to Our Lady, attendance at eucharistic adoration, and regular prayer of the Rosary are at risk of being shown the door. The vocations stories of Fr. John Trugillio and Fr. John Corapi illustrate this problem. The goal is create a drive for married priests and women priests by destroying orthodox vocations. And no, I am not exaggerating.

This is a bit of a dated statement. Both Father Corapi and Father Trugilio, God bless them, have been ordained for a number of years now. The whole vocational terrain has changed massively in the last ten years. Though there are still a few hold-outs, most seminaries have or are in the process of cleaning themselves up. The recent upsurge in vocations nearly across the board corresponds directly to the traditional practices which you mention (as do the women’s congregations which are mentioned later that have retained a traditional habit and lifestyle). We really shouldn’t pass off this “Goodbye, Good Men” business as anything more than history at this point or we do ourselves a tremendous disservice and simply dishearten the faithful men who have worked hard for change.

Other than that, I certainly didn’t mean to imply in a precious post that people other than servers, let alone women considering religious life ought to have a special relationship with their priest. Indeed, everyone ought to have a close bond with their priest. We call them “Fathers” for a reason. That being said, however, there is no direct correlate between serving Mass and religious life as there clearly is with serving Mass and saying Mass. The best way to encourage women’s vocations is to get the solid women’s congregations to come to your town and be present. Vocations will flood inevitably, then. The other part of this is that we really, really need to engage in real dialogue, and if necessary confrontation with some of these older, wackier congregations about what really constitutes both Christianity in particular and religious life in particular. Then, let the chips fall where they will.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

Many people will dissmiss this post as cliche and fabricated. However, this is probably were i got my desire to becaome a priest though i am not one right now, i think it played a very big role. Once the girls started taking over so to speak it kinda of turned me off, also not having structure and the relaxed attitude about the whole thing was very detrimental to my pursuit into the altar serving life. I don’t place all the blame on the girls i place most of the blame on the Priests and Bishops who allow these kind of things to occur.

 

[CARose]

Sean,

I’m sorry, but your problem regarding girls serving at the altar isn’t what has prevented you from being a priest, despite what you think. If God had called you and you were listening, something like girls serving as Altar servers could not have deterred you.

CARose

 

[Nota_Bene]

CARose:

Sean,

I’m sorry, but your problem regarding girls serving at the altar isn’t what has prevented you from being a priest, despite what you think. If God had called you and you were listening, something like girls serving as Altar servers could not have deterred you.

CARose

You’re making judgements that you lack the knowledge to make.

You would be surprised just how amplified the call becomes when a male is on his knees in the sanctuary in focused anticipation as the Eucharist is confected 5 feet away…

 

[Nota_Bene]

puzzleannie:

In my experience, working with altar servers of both sexes, the biggest argument against allowing girls to serve was stated by one person above, but has been lost in the shuffle. This reason should resonate with people on both ends of the liberal-conservative spectrum. It is simply cruel to allow girls to serve at Mass and fill a liturgical function when they can never be admitted to the ordained priesthood. The functions of the server are so tied to the liturgical action that it is nearly impossible to convince girls, once they have been allowed to participate, that they cannot aspire further. We have created a huge “PR” problem by letting girls serve.

They can always become a self-described female “para-priest” like I have seen in some parishes.

They can wear an alb and a scarf that looks suspiciously like a priest’s stole. If questioned they can claim that the scarf is a symbol of their nationality or race. That will end all such discussions.

Best of all they walk across the sanctuary 10-20 times just before Mass “just to check on things.” The sanctuary will become their stage in the “new church” (whatever that means.)

 

[Nota_Bene]

Where are the boys? Why aren’t parents making sure their sons know how important serving is. I am not anti-girls, I have two girls who are servers (as is their brother). If there were enough boys to serve, I would not allow my girls to serve. Why has it become up to the boys if they want to serve? Isn’t it a responsibility to do what is needed for the church?

I think the real question is “where are the parents.” There are always enough boys to serve, if the parents make the effort…

 

[katherine2]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I should have put the reference in.

adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

Now, since we know that it is not some discussion group poster “making up facts” perhaps you can open your mind a little to this.

I’ve looked at the link. Nowhere does it even come close to making the made-up claim that most proponents of Proponents of allowing women to serve never said that it would be an "unalloyed boon. So once again we find the adversaries of women serving making up tales.

Again, people who have the facts on their side don’t need to make things up. It seems the opponents of women serving are such an example.

 

[katherine2]

puzzleannie:

It is simply cruel to allow girls to serve at Mass and fill a liturgical function when they can never be admitted to the ordained priesthood. The functions of the server are so tied to the liturgical action that it is nearly impossible to convince girls, once they have been allowed to participate, that they cannot aspire further. We have created a huge “PR” problem by letting girls serve.

I can’t concurr with that. In fact, I think you though drip with liberalism

I’ll explain why (and I mean this good naturedly). I presumes two “liberal innovations”.

1. It assumes the reservation of the priesthood to males is a challenge to reason. it suggests the concept of a male priesthood is difficult to reasonably explain so women need to be kept as far away from it as possible.
2. It totally rejects the quite traditionalist proposition that the altar server is representing the congregation (which for years is why we were told we did not need this liberal innovation of the Dialogue Mass).

 

[Kielbasi]

****Female altar servers are a good thing.

Current policy, which has been reiterated by Pope John Paul II, is that women have been banned from the priesthood. This is something which is quite unlikely to change with the next pope either, all of the current cardinals and bishops are JPII- appointees and aren’t going to change on this policy which has been so emphasized over the past 25 years.

Female altar service at least gives the young ladies some role in the liturgy as they are not going to become priests. Also it might help them discern whether or not they have a future role as an EMHC/‘eucharistic minister’ or lector.

 

[netmilsmom]

katherine2:

I’ve looked at the link. Nowhere does it even come close to making the made-up claim that most proponents of Proponents of allowing women to serve never said that it would be an "unalloyed boon. So once again we find the adversaries of women serving making up tales.

Again, people who have the facts on their side don’t need to make things up. It seems the opponents of women serving are such an example.

Well, you read it from your perspective and found your point. Interperting facts is not the same as making them up.

Could you please provide us a reference to the idea that vocations have improved since the addition of Altar Girls? The unalloyed boon quoted from the article was an interpertation of eariler letters from the Vatican stating that we may well see a drop in vocations.

Where are the stats stating that vocations have improved?

 

[netmilsmom]

Kielbasi:

Female altar service at least gives the young ladies some role in the liturgy as they are not going to become priests. Also it might help them discern whether or not they have a future role as an EMHC/‘eucharistic minister’ or lector.

As the mother of girls, the Godmother of girls, and the Aunt of girls, I can tell you that none of the girls I am in contact with have Altar Boy envy. Our girls have a place, they sing in the choir. None of the boys are allowed there. It is their place in the liturgy. And a fine place it is.

I bet my four year old can beat anyone singing the Kyrie, in Greek I might add!

We have female lectors. We have enough Priests and Deacons that we don’t need EEMs. My girls see me volunteering for the Altar and Rosary society, the Welcoming committee, set up for Fish Fry and leading the Rosary before mass. I even launder linens for my old parish. They never see me saying mass and never will.
If you think that I as a woman do not have a very important place in our church, you need to visit us and tell it to our Slovak ladies. They will set you straight.
And none of it has to do with serving on the Altar.

I think we need to look at this issue the other way. Those poor boys will never give birth. It’s something no man will do (God willing- barring psycho technology) Let them be special. Let them do something the girls don’t. And maybe we will get more Priests.

 

[Defensor_Fidei]

****Female altar servers are a good thing
.

Current policy, which has been reiterated by Pope John Paul II, is that women have been banned from the priesthood. This is something which is quite unlikely to change with the next pope either, all of the current cardinals and bishops are JPII- appointees and aren’t going to change on this policy which has been so emphasized over the past 25 years.

Female altar service at least gives the young ladies some role in the liturgy as they are not going to become priests. Also it might help them discern whether or not they have a future role as an EMHC/‘eucharistic minister’ or lector.

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is not a mere policy. It is a binding teaching that can never be changed.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

-Ted

 

[katherine2]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Interperting facts is not the same as making them up.

The post did not interpert facts. It stated that proponents made a specific claim. It provided no source for that claim. Can you cite proponents making that claim or was this made up?

Could you please provide us a reference to the idea that vocations have improved since the addition of Altar Girls?

I never said this happended.

 

[netmilsmom]

katherine2:

The post did not interpert facts. It stated that proponents made a specific claim. It provided no source for that claim. Can you cite proponents making that claim or was this made up?

I never said this happended.

Here’s a quick one from Abbé Sinoir
“The presence of women in the sanctuary, which is the place of Christ the New Adam, Bridegroom and Saviour, and hence the place of the bishop, bridegroom of his [local] church, the place of the priest and the deacon - this unjustifiable feminine presence, even if it does not destroy the objectivity of the perpetually renewed redemptive Act, nevertheless greatly harms the personal faith of each member of the congregation by confronting it with a sign which falsifies the mystery; it impoverishes our faith.”

You had to go back and read** all **the letters referenced. From there certain statements were made. The Vatican is not known for it’s in your face way of putting things. Nuance is always there.

If you believe that this site is “making up facts” then prove that they are. Give us a reference that what they are saying is wrong.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

CARose:

Sean,

I’m sorry, but your problem regarding girls serving at the altar isn’t what has prevented you from being a priest, despite what you think. If God had called you and you were listening, something like girls serving as Altar servers could not have deterred you.

CARose

I am not saying that because girls were allowed to serve, that is why i am not a priest, it is why i didn’t pursue altar serving life. I know exactly what i think, and why things happened to me! you missed the point and made a wrongful judgement upon me. Besides i DO know what cause things for myself and what doesn’t, how could possibly know more than I about myself except for God?!

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

katherine2:

I can’t concurr with that. In fact, I think you though drip with liberalism

I’ll explain why (and I mean this good naturedly). I presumes two “liberal innovations”.

1. It assumes the reservation of the priesthood to males is a challenge to reason. it suggests the concept of a male priesthood is difficult to reasonably explain so women need to be kept as far away from it as possible.
2. It totally rejects the quite traditionalist proposition that the altar server is representing the congregation (which for years is why we were told we did not need this liberal innovation of the Dialogue Mass).

Hello! you are setting girls who have a desire to follow the Priesthood, you are setting them up for a FALSE HOPE! simple as that, i don’t see how you cannot see that? Don’t be so quick to point fingers and start labeling people and or ideas as “Liberal” that happens way to much here, people making misjudgements and false ideas.

 

[Nota_Bene]

Female altar servers are a good thing
.

Current policy, which has been reiterated by Pope John Paul II, is that women have been banned from the priesthood. This is something which is quite unlikely to change with the next pope either, all of the current cardinals and bishops are JPII- appointees and aren’t going to change on this policy which has been so emphasized over the past 25 years.

Female altar service at least gives the young ladies some role in the liturgy as they are not going to become priests. Also it might help them discern whether or not they have a future role as an EMHC/‘eucharistic minister’ or lector.

1.) The position outlined in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is not merely current policy. It reflects 2000 years of history and it’s not subject to change.

2.) Giving a group “some role in the liturgy” is never a reason for anyone to serve at the altar.

3.) Let’s hope the use of EMsHC actually begin to follow what the Church directs – that they are used only under EXTRAORDINARY circumstances.

4.) Females cannot be lectors. They can be readers, but not lectors. This too isn’t going to change.

 

[Nota_Bene]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

As the mother of girls, the Godmother of girls, and the Aunt of girls, I can tell you that none of the girls I am in contact with have Altar Boy envy. Our girls have a place, they sing in the choir. None of the boys are allowed there. It is their place in the liturgy. And a fine place it is.

I bet my four year old can beat anyone singing the Kyrie, in Greek I might add!

We have female lectors. We have enough Priests and Deacons that we don’t need EEMs. My girls see me volunteering for the Altar and Rosary society, the Welcoming committee, set up for Fish Fry and leading the Rosary before mass. I even launder linens for my old parish. They never see me saying mass and never will.
If you think that I as a woman do not have a very important place in our church, you need to visit us and tell it to our Slovak ladies. They will set you straight.
And none of it has to do with serving on the Altar.

I think we need to look at this issue the other way. Those poor boys will never give birth. It’s something no man will do (God willing- barring psycho technology) Let them be special. Let them do something the girls don’t. And maybe we will get more Priests.

You have female readers.

 

[katherine2]

Sean.McKenzie:

Hello! you are setting girls who have a desire to follow the Priesthood, you are setting them up for a FALSE HOPE! simple as that, i don’t see how you cannot see that? Don’t be so quick to point fingers and start labeling people and or ideas as “Liberal” that happens way to much here, people making misjudgements and false ideas.

You presume the teaching that the priesthood is reserved for males is so difficult to understand that even allowing girls to serve will give them false hope. That doesn’t speak very well to the self-evidence of this teaching. Those banning altar girls for this reason have a liberal premise to a conservative conclusion.

 

[Catholic2003]

4.) Females cannot be lectors. They can be readers, but not lectors. This too isn’t going to change.

There is no Church teaching that this rule cannot be changed in the future, so that female lectors might someday be allowed.