Girl Altar Servers

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SpiritusSanctus said:
No, the modernism is the reason girl altar servers came along.
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It may be that feminism did bring it about, but our pastor made this very good point: priests do not have the luxury of only getting along or working with men any more. A guy that cannot cope with working with females has no business in the priesthood, because there is no place in the Church where women aren’t needed to carry the workload, and not just ironing linens, fixing food, and doing menial paperwork. Whatever laypeople are allowed to do, women are going to do. Altar girls or not, get used to it, future seminarians.

My outlook is a little slanted. I came from a very traditional male-dominated parish growing up–small parish, and there was something in the water or something but lots more boys than girls in it, and only boys allowed to be servers. The parish got smaller and smaller, finally allowed girls to serve, and as it worked out we finally we got a vocation to the priesthood. It is fine to have all boys at the altar, but that doesn’t guarantee that any will go to seminary. That has much more to do with the vocational atmosphere in the home, I’m convinced of it.

Actually, I’m more of the opinion that now that grown women may be more active as laypeople and also families are smaller and some single women don’t marry at all, it is hurting the vocations to the religious life among women. The value of committing to a religious community of women isn’t as obvious as it once was.
 
EasterJoy said:
It may be that feminism did bring it about, but our pastor made this very good point: priests do not have the luxury of only getting along or working with men any more. A guy that cannot cope with working with females has no business in the priesthood, because there is no place in the Church where women aren’t needed to carry the workload, and not just ironing linens, fixing food, and doing menial paperwork. Whatever laypeople are allowed to do, women are going to do. Altar girls or not, get used to it, future seminarians.

My outlook is a little slanted. I came from a very traditional male-dominated parish growing up–small parish, and there was something in the water or something but lots more boys than girls in it, and only boys allowed to be servers. The parish got smaller and smaller, finally allowed girls to serve, and as it worked out we finally we got a vocation to the priesthood. It is fine to have all boys at the altar, but that doesn’t guarantee that any will go to seminary. That has much more to do with the vocational atmosphere in the home, I’m convinced of it.

Actually, I’m more of the opinion that now that grown women may be more active as laypeople and also families are smaller and some single women don’t marry at all, it is hurting the vocations to the religious life among women. The value of committing to a religious community of women isn’t as obvious as it once was.
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An un-Traditional viewpoint, clearly. Tradition is NOT to have female altar servers and priests, so no, I’m not going to get used to it. It’s not right. To say there’s no place in the Church where women aren’t needed goes completely against what pre-Vatican II Popes have said on the subject. You can’t argue with Tradition, which is something that can never be modified in any way. The only real place for women in the Church is the convent. Does it not matter that past Popes wrote encyclicals speaking out against female altar servers? I ask you to think hard about this subject and ask yourself if it’s really right, if it’s really what should be seen at Mass, or if it’s a wrong practice.
 
cctabb said:
Do you also hold the belief that the only place for women in the home is barefoot and pregnant?
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I believe that married women should stay at home with their families and not work outside the home unless they have to.
 
choy said:
are you sure thats the proper sequence? didn’t the girls come into the picture because the guys don’t want to do it anymore?
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No. Girls started serving in some locales then they were allowed to serve, then the boys disappeared. In my parish in the late '90s (when they were allowed), the changed happened drastically after the first co-ed altar server picnic. (It may not have been so much the girls as the mothers…)
SpiritusSanctus said:
It primarily dates back to Vatican II where it was suddenly considered a valid practice in the Church. Interestingly, protestant services had such a practice first. So you can imagine how female altar servers got thrown in since protestants actually gave suggestions at Vatican II. Proof of them giving suggestions is everywhere. They may not have given that suggestion specifically, but it came along after Vatican II, so that’s your reason right there. I’ll be happy to post something to back up my view on this matter if you wish.
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Post hoc, fratello? The furthest you can date back the change is Ministeria Quaedam, which changed the role of acolyte from clerical to lay. (If you want to argue that the Pope doesn’t have the authority, look into arguing it for the suppression of the minor orders. Very easy to make the argument that those replacing even minor clerics must be male…) From that came the change in canon law that was eventually interpreted to permit altar girls, the letters going out on the Ides of March in 1994 (Latin document posted a few pages back).

Edited to add:

EasterJoy, while secular priests do have to work with lay women, altar girls remains at the discretion of the priest (although he’d better have a plan in mind if he wished to phase them out).
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
An un-Traditional viewpoint, clearly. Tradition is NOT to have female altar servers and priests, so no, I’m not going to get used to it. It’s not right. To say there’s no place in the Church where women aren’t needed goes completely against what pre-Vatican II Popes have said on the subject. You can’t argue with Tradition, which is something that can never be modified in any way. The only real place for women in the Church is the convent. Does it not matter that past Popes wrote encyclicals speaking out against female altar servers? I ask you to think hard about this subject and ask yourself if it’s really right, if it’s really what should be seen at Mass, or if it’s a wrong practice.
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Thank you.
 
I know I’m entering this at about the 410th post, but I was under the impression that the position of altar server was supposed to be one way to foster vocations?

Since Jesus cleary and incontrovertably established an all-male clergy for his Church, what good does having a female altar server do other than to appease the liberals?
 
CDNowak said:
No. Girls started serving in some locales then they were allowed to serve, then the boys disappeared. In my parish in the late '90s (when they were allowed), the changed happened drastically after the first co-ed altar server picnic. (It may not have been so much the girls as the mothers…)

Post hoc, fratello? The furthest you can date back the change is Ministeria Quaedam, which changed the role of acolyte from clerical to lay. (If you want to argue that the Pope doesn’t have the authority, look into arguing it for the suppression of the minor orders. Very easy to make the argument that those replacing even minor clerics must be male…) From that came the change in canon law that was eventually interpreted to permit altar girls, the letters going out on the Ides of March in 1994 (Latin document posted a few pages back).

Edited to add:

EasterJoy, while secular priests do have to work with lay women, altar girls remains at the discretion of the priest (although he’d better have a plan in mind if he wished to phase them out).
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And please…let me add to this. You hit it with the explanation that may be that becoming girl alter servers was more to do with their Mothers. We have to state then that men need to take their proper place in the home as the spiritial leader. My wife takes my direction, but I do not lead her to the trough. She agrees with proper eticate and is a stay at home Mother and teaches our children about God through Catechesis.

I would add that when we used to help with RCIA, a single woman i.e. divorced woman was intersted in becoming Catholic. She intentionally (I believe) brought her protestant ideaology with her and tried to interject it wherever she could. She went so far to discuss this subject and thought beyond being a female alter server women should be allowed to become Priests and that it was becoming more acceptable in protestanism and that she liked the direction. It wasn’t too long after this that she quit altogether, as we did not encourage her or other woman in this direction of thought.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
You can’t argue with Tradition, which is something that can never be modified in any way. .
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The problem with this logic is that the Church has changed many things over the last 2000 years. Such as going from the Aramaic and Greek into Latin, progressing to an all celibate priesthood, the uniting of the Latin Rite at Trent (although other forms were allowed even then). Tradition in the matter of faith and morals can not be changed. However, many things do not follow under that category. No previous pope defined all male altar servers as a matter of faith and moral. Thus, it is not a matter of immutable tradition. You do not have to ever except it and can always oppose it as not being right. That positition, however, is not the position of the Catholic Church.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
An un-Traditional viewpoint, clearly. Tradition is NOT to have female altar servers and priests, so no, I’m not going to get used to it. It’s not right. To say there’s no place in the Church where women aren’t needed goes completely against what pre-Vatican II Popes have said on the subject. You can’t argue with Tradition, which is something that can never be modified in any way. The only real place for women in the Church is the convent. Does it not matter that past Popes wrote encyclicals speaking out against female altar servers? I ask you to think hard about this subject and ask yourself if it’s really right, if it’s really what should be seen at Mass, or if it’s a wrong practice.
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Priests in the US have been abusive in this direction as well. But then men have allowed women leity to perversiveness. They are allowed to run the churches. Oh I know, my Priest would never admit it. But watch how he is approached and who is approaching. Men need to take quite a bit of the blame in my book for this abuse. We need to encourage our young men that becoming alter servers is a ministry and an act of bestowed grace through Jesus Christ. The Priest acts on Jesus behalf and alter servers as desciples. A Holy Holy thing and a rightful place. But we also need to encourage our Daughters to seek Holy vows through our Mother Mary and what is proper through Catechesis.
 
dnu said:
I know I’m entering this at about the 410th post, but I was under the impression that the position of altar server was supposed to be one way to foster vocations?

Since Jesus cleary and incontrovertably established an all-male clergy for his Church, what good does having a female altar server do other than to appease the liberals?
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Because the priesthood is not the only vocation. Also, foster vocations was only one reason for altar servers. The primary reason was the service itself.
 
dnu said:
Since Jesus cleary and incontrovertably established an all-male clergy for his Church, what good does having a female altar server do other than to appease the liberals?
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Well, there are several possibilities:
Help girls feel included in the parish;

Promote women’s vocations, as mentioned in previous posts;

Send a message that the Church does not consider women to be second-class citizens except in matters reserved as a matter of faith to men, encouraging women estranged from the faith for that reason to reconnect;

Gain additional altar severs in parishes where there is a shortage;

Reduce occasions for sexual abuse by creating mixed-gender settings.

On balance, I favor boys only for altar servers for vocational reasons, and also to send a message that the Church isn’t afraid to be politically incorrect when it comes to liturgical and even pastoral matters. But there are plenty of perfectly respectable reasons on the other side of the issue beyond “appeasing the liberals.”
 
dnu said:
I know I’m entering this at about the 410th post, but I was under the impression that the position of altar server was supposed to be one way to foster vocations?

Since Jesus cleary and incontrovertably established an all-male clergy for his Church, what good does having a female altar server do other than to appease the liberals?
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yes.

here this Cardinal explains:

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY&feature=related
 
MarkThompson said:
Well, there are several possibilities:
Help girls feel included in the parish;

Promote women’s vocations, as mentioned in previous posts;

Send a message that the Church does not consider women to be second-class citizens except in matters reserved as a matter of faith to men, encouraging women estranged from the faith for that reason to reconnect;

Gain additional altar severs in parishes where there is a shortage;

Reduce occasions for sexual abuse by creating mixed-gender settings.

On balance, I favor boys only for altar servers for vocational reasons, and also to send a message that the Church isn’t afraid to be politically incorrect when it comes to liturgical and even pastoral matters. But there are plenty of perfectly respectable reasons on the other side of the issue beyond “appeasing the liberals.”
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You make valid modern contemporary reasons. When Nuns were always recognizable as Nuns and respected (we were very reverent towards and scared of their Holiness) girls were every part of the structure of the church in some form where I grew up. I respect Nuns today, but have to be told a woman is a Nun so that I know. I respect all women you understand, but when it comes to political correctness, I am a male cheuvonist. I know that I’m not a very eloquent speaker, so forgive me, but I miss the Orders that were once recognizable. This recognizability helped to promote women’s vocations. Nuns ruled and were at the same time very feminine in their reverence. I saw our Holy Mother Mary through them.

Alter servers today aren’t doing anything at the Alter in the Norvus Order. I mean, I live in the Doicesen home town and the Bishop makes no bones about having alter servers. It’s not taught correctly (and we have women teaching. It’s like women teaching boys how to play baseball or anything that traditionally is a “man” thing or participants of). It’s no wonder. I mean, men do not have babies. And real men that love God and understand their place do not teach girls how to accesserize. Understand? We use lame excuses to get around proper teaching or to be politically correct. Men need to take their place.

I never thought women were or are treated like 2nd class citizens within the Church, and I don’t think sexual abuse would be stopped by mixing genders at the Alter. The devil comes in all forms and may enter anyone who allows him to. It’s all about choice and sin. And if you are going to mix genders at the Alter to thwart the occassional sex abuse, where does it stop, allowing Priest to marry or women to become Priest? If boys aren’t available for the job, then men need to step up. And those men who love God and know that being an alter server know that it is a ministry and serve in the TLM when called upon. And as for me, I am teaching my Sons the respect women deserve, and the reverance of being an Alter Boy.
 
dnu said:
I know I’m entering this at about the 410th post, but I was under the impression that the position of altar server was supposed to be one way to foster vocations?

Since Jesus cleary and incontrovertably established an all-male clergy for his Church, what good does having a female altar server do other than to appease the liberals?
Click to expand...
Exactly. Vocations that celebrate Mass: PRIESTS. If someone is considering becoming a nun or monk serving at the altar shouldn’t influence their decision.
 
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