Girl Altar Servers

[japscarousel]

First of all this document is from 1980. It was in 94 or 95 (my daughter was the first group of girl servers in our parish) that girls/women were given permission to serve.

can you cite some documents that say ID is no longer binding?

Girls can be lectors, commentators, choir members…but please, they should not be taking up all the ministries in the Mass, making the priest as the sole male in the sanctuary.

Are girl altar servers in response to a feminist nun who told the Pope in his visit to US in the 90’s to open all ministries of the Church, including priesthood? (I just watched this on a DVD about the pope, hope someone would post details about that feminist).

 

[japscarousel]

PS: I want to make it clear, with my last post that I am not saying it was because of that feminist nun (Theresa Kane is her name) that the Church allowed lady altar servers. I am saying that some of altar girls proponents might be responding to the call of this ‘nun’, that they are bit-by-bit ‘opening’ the ministries of the church to women.

this is what she said:
“As women we have heard the powerful message of our church addressing the dignity and reverence of all persons. As women we have pondered these words. Our contemplation leads us to state that the church in its struggle to be faithful to its call for reverence and dignity for all persons must respond by providing the possibility of women as persons being included in all ministries of the church.”

it happened in 1979, not in the 90’s.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

In the OF Masses I attend, they don’t even have servers. A deacon usually accompanies the priest on the Sunday Masses and on weekdays they say the Mass alone.

What do servers do in the OF? I’m serious.

My son serves OF Masses at our parish (which only has boy servers). Usually there are 2 for daily Masses and 4 for Sunday Masses. The servers process with the cross, hold the book for the priest when he is not standing at the altar, bring the elements to the altar, hold the bowl and water for the lavado, clear the altar after communion, and whatever else the priests ask them to help with. At special Masses like the triduum Masses, they also carry the thurifer and candles and holy water. General all the things the EF servers do at a Mass with servers.

Our priests always purify the ciborium and chalice at the altar and they are the only ones who go into the tabernacle.

A priest has always been able to say Mass without a server there to hand him things. There have been times when someone was required to say the responses, but also times when even that was not necessary.

 

[Malleus_01]

My son serves OF Masses at our parish (which only has boy servers). Usually there are 2 for daily Masses and 4 for Sunday Masses. The servers process with the cross, hold the book for the priest when he is not standing at the altar, bring the elements to the altar, hold the bowl and water for the lavado, clear the altar after communion, and whatever else the priests ask them to help with. At special Masses like the triduum Masses, they also carry the thurifer and candles and holy water. General all the things the EF servers do at a Mass with servers.

Our priests always purify the ciborium and chalice at the altar and they are the only ones who go into the tabernacle.

A priest has always been able to say Mass without a server there to hand him things. There have been times when someone was required to say the responses, but also times when even that was not necessary.

Malleus: In the TLM there are no Female Altar Servers. When Jesus Chose the Apostles - alll of them were Male. When GOD Assumed Human Form as the Only Begotten Son of GOD he assumed the Form of a Male. Not a female. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Greatest created human being , being created without Original Sin.

So why do I say all of this?

Because if human beings wish to serve Almighty GOD - perhaps they should strive to serve Almighty GOD and not the National Organization for Women

Pax

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Malleus: In the TLM there are no Female Altar Servers. When Jesus Chose the Apostles - alll of them were Male. When GOD Assumed Human Form as the Only Begotten Son of GOD he assumed the Form of a Male. Not a female. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Greatest created human being , being created without Original Sin.

So why do I say all of this?

Because if human beings wish to serve Almighty GOD - perhaps they should strive to serve Almighty GOD and not the National Organization for Women

Pax

I understand what you are saying but I do want to protest that you choose to quote from my post. I am not at all interested in serving NOW. We belong to a parish that does not allow girl altar servers and I would never agitate to get them.

I was off topic a bit for the thread though because I was answering the question of what altar servers do in the OF instead of discussing girl vs boy servers.

 

[Bluegoat]

Women were at the foot of the Cross, so there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with female altar servers. However, females can’t become priests and serving at the altar is a way of developing future priests (tradesman and apprentice). The role has more depth in the Usus Antiquior as much of the server’s job in the Novus Ordo was scrapped.

I have some experience with female altar servers in traditionalist Anglican parishes. I am not convinced that allowing this is either responsible for making women want to be priests, or for causing problems with bringing along vocations.

My biggest reasons are that among the female altar servers in those places, they were likely to be among the most conservative with regard to women in the priesthood, and they all had an unusual number of young men entering the priesthood. Both of which tend to make me think that other factors were more important than female altar servers. There was some thoughtful attention given to the treatment of potential vocations.

Additionally, I think that there is a danger in not allowing something which is not disallowed by nature. If girls are not, by their nature, denied the possibility of being altar servers, than by choosing to disallow it one invites speculation on the reasons, and people may equate those reasons with the ones for not allowing women into the priesthood. If they think women are not allowed to be altar servers due to misogyny, or just custom, then it seems unjust. They may then wonder about the real rational for the male only priesthood. There is little trust to build on as to intentions. So it seems to me there must be a very strong practical reason for restricting female altar servers to outweigh that disadvantage.

 

[Malleus_01]

I have some experience with female altar servers in traditionalist Anglican parishes. I am not convinced that allowing this is either responsible for making women want to be priests, or for causing problems with bringing along vocations.

My biggest reasons are that among the female altar servers in those places, they were likely to be among the most conservative with regard to women in the priesthood, and they all had an unusual number of young men entering the priesthood. Both of which tend to make me think that other factors were more important than female altar servers. There was some thoughtful attention given to the treatment of potential vocations.

Additionally, I think that there is a danger in not allowing something which is not disallowed by nature. If girls are not, by their nature, denied the possibility of being altar servers, than by choosing to disallow it one invites speculation on the reasons, and people may equate those reasons with the ones for not allowing women into the priesthood. If they think women are not allowed to be altar servers due to misogyny, or just custom, then it seems unjust. They may then wonder about the real rational for the male only priesthood. There is little trust to build on as to intentions. So it seems to me there must be a very strong practical reason for restricting female altar servers to outweigh that disadvantage.

Malleus: Do they veil themselves? 1 Corinthians chapter 11 ? Just wondering. I have yet to see an Altar Girl. I dont go to the OF or to any other Protestant church.

 

[Melchior_1]

Malleus: Do they veil themselves? 1 Corinthians chapter 11 ? Just wondering. I have yet to see an Altar Girl. I dont go to the OF or to any other Protestant church.

“any other Protestant Church”. Does this mean you consider the OF to be Protestant/Heretical/Not Valid?

 

[Malleus_01]

“any other Protestant Church”. Does this mean you consider the OF to be Protestant/Heretical/Not Valid?

Malleus: Well , simply stated - Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. You tell me.

 

[Janet1983]

Did the experience ever inspire in you an interest in the holy priesthood as a vocation?

Yes, it did to a certain degree, but the impossibility within the Catholic Church put a quick end to that one. My alternative had been studying theology towards a degree and job that is only available in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands… This one can be taken by females and includes all but the sacraments.
I also seriously thought about joining the Franciscan Sisters of the Poor (SPSF) in Germany and lived with them for 10 months before I graduated High School…

 

[Melchior_1]

Malleus: Well , simply stated - Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. You tell me.

Yes or No, my friend. Yes or No.

 

[Malleus_01]

Yes or No, my friend. Yes or No.

Malleus: Do you want me to state that Clown Masses are Valid when offered in the OF? Sorry , you have come to the wrong person.

 

[Bluegoat]

Malleus: Do they veil themselves? 1 Corinthians chapter 11 ? Just wondering. I have yet to see an Altar Girl. I dont go to the OF or to any other Protestant church.

I haven’t noticed any that do, but it is fairly unusual for Anglican women to veil in any case. Perhaps at Confirmation/First Communion. In my grandmothers generation they usually wore hats.

Mind you, I think that the wife of my priest wore a viel when she was churched, but I certainly didn’t.

 

[Melchior_1]

Malleus: Do you want me to state that Clown Masses are Valid when offered in the OF? Sorry , you have come to the wrong person.

I’m asking you if you believe if the OF is heretical. I said nothing of “clown Masses”, I asked about the OF. You threw the OF in with protestants earlier. It’s not a difficult question to answer.

Do you believe that the Mass of Pope Paul VI is heretical?

 

[Malleus_01]

I’m asking you if you believe if the OF is heretical. I said nothing of “clown Masses”, I asked about the OF. You threw the OF in with protestants earlier. It’s not a difficult question to answer.

Do you believe that the Mass of Pope Paul VI is heretical?

Malleus: I believe that Vatican Council II declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom. Therefore the right to religious freedom has its foundation not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed.

Malleus: And I believe that YOU should practise what you say you believe in - in regards to people like me.

Does this answer your question sufficiently or do you pretend to hold ecclesiastic authority over me?

Pax

 

[Janet1983]

I disagree with girl altar servers. I believe that priests should do more to encourage boys to serve the altar. We have a priest shortage, and one of the ways to foster vocations would be to have male-only altar servers. If our priests did more to encourage young boys to serve the altar, I am sure that we would have more priests in the future.

Why don’t you just let them serve? In the parishes I was given the opportunity to serve girls usually quit around the age of 12-14 anyways and only a small number of altar servers in general stays beyond that age.
The parish I was in when I left for basic had a group of 4 altar servers who were the most experienced. The oldest was a girl (22, me), the others were 3 boys, 2 of which were brothers (19, 17… one left for basic too) and a third one (18) who went on to become a priest.
Our pastor however had never been an altar server…

 

[Malleus_01]

I haven’t noticed any that do, but it is fairly unusual for Anglican women to veil in any case. Perhaps at Confirmation/First Communion. In my grandmothers generation they usually wore hats.

Mind you, I think that the wife of my priest wore a viel when she was churched, but I certainly didn’t.

Malleus: Thank you. I figured as much.

 

[Malleus_01]

Why don’t you just let them serve? In the parishes I was given the opportunity to serve girls usually quit around the age of 12-14 anyways and only a small number of altar servers in general stays beyond that age.
The parish I was in when I left for basic had a group of 4 altar servers who were the most experienced. The oldest was a girl (22, me), the others were 3 boys, 2 of which were brothers (19, 17… one left for basic too) and a third one (18) who went on to become a priest.
Our pastor however had never been an altar server…

Malleus: Should we have Women Priests as well?

 

[Melchior_1]

*Malleus: I believe that Vatican Council II declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom. Therefore the right to religious freedom has its foundation not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed. *

You’re getting pretty worked up over a simple Yes or No answer. You could have saved a lot of time typing by simply giving a one word answer.

Does this answer your question sufficiently or do you pretend to hold ecclesiastic authority over me?

I’m asking because I’m merely curious, as I wish to know more about your mindset and why you think the way you do. I respect the “traditionalist” mindset, but there are some elements that some people have on here that frankly I find troubling. I want to know more, learn more.

You seem hostile though. I hope you don’t talk down to inquiring minds in this method outside of this message board.

 

[stevusmagnus]

Response to fermat in post #15.

Pope John Paul II

Inaestimabile Donum

adoremus.org/InaestimabileDonum.html

1. Eucharistic Communion. Communion is a gift of the Lord, given to the faithful through the minister appointed for this purpose. It is not permitted that the faithful should themselves pick up the consecrated bread and the sacred chalice, still less that they should hand them from one to another.

1. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.(27)