Girl Altar Servers

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ProVobis said:
I take it you’re not up to speed yet on all the coverups of all the sex abuses that have been going on since the 60’s?
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Careful Pro, don’t want you to fall over the tracks as we derail this thread 😃

Of course, I am aware of how horribly some of the clergy have handled sex abuse however I really don’t see how A=B here, unless you are saying Pius XII, Paul VI, JPI, JPII or B16 were forced not to take action on an issue they knew about. If that’s the case, why don’t we take this to a new thread so we don’t kill this one?
 
stevus, you are so right about female altar servers! I especially cannot stand when they are used as liturgical dancers. Only male altar servers should be used for Masses.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
stevus, you are so right about female altar servers! I especially cannot stand when they are used as liturgical dancers. Only male altar servers should be used for Masses.
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What do you mean by liturgical dancers? Oh please don’t tell me they make the altar servers “dance” during Mass. Are you kidding?:eek:
 
TheDoctor said:
If that’s the case, why don’t we take this to a new thread so we don’t kill this one?
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I’ll have to agree with you on this. However, I was advised it might be better to start such threads on the “In the News” forum. There might be too many virgin ears here. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
I’ll have to agree with you on this. However, I was advised it might be better to start such threads on the “In the News” forum. There might be too many virgin ears here. 🙂
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;)Understand. For right now, I think I’ll just pray for those abused and the abusers for one needs to heal and the other needs to be forgiven.
 
TheDoctor said:
I have yet to find where altar girls were expressly forbidden (perhaps in the 1917 Canon?). As JPII said in the encyclical you quoted, it was a long standing tradition of having males serve at the altar. I agree that JPII’s teaching was clear in 1980, but again the issue is the 1983 code which seemed to allow it, and in 1994 the Pope changing this discipline and allowing it as well. And again, from what I have read it was Bishops who allowed it, not individual priests. Do you have some reference material you are using?
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I’m sorry, are you asking me if girl altar boys were legally allowed before 1994? I’m finding it hard to take this question seriously.

In the '83 Code “laici” clearly referred to men and was deliberately translated by our friends at ICEL, (who gave us “for all” in the consecration), as “persons” to create ambiguity. Clerics before 1980 up until '94 continued to disobey the express will of the Pope until the Vatican gave permission for the first time in 1994 to allow the practice.

Your logic would have us believe that JPII in his own '83 Canon Law meant to allow girl altar boys across the Church, having just three years previously condemned the practice.

Not only this, you would have us believe he changed the entire 2,000 year tradition of the Church of not allowing women to serve at the altar with not so much as a peep of explanation and no media fanfare in '83?

This is absurd.

The same liberal Bishops and priests who were disobeying Rome on this issue before Dominicae caenae, and who caused the need for JPII to write Dominicae caenae, used the '83 Code translation as a pretext to justify their own continuing disobedience.

Were these Bishops acting in good faith when they continued to allow the practice from 80-83?

Come on now. Many Catholics were born at night, but not last night.
 
TheDoctor said:
The way I see it, you seem to be making the opposite point of what you are trying to argue. Moses allowed the discipline of divorce, which was approved by God (as Moses was his messenger). Was divorce “good” in the OT? It must have been, for God allowed it to continue for thousands of years (as I know of no prophet that spoke the word of God against it). Or, are you arguing that God “tolerated the evil” of divorce by allowing it?
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Divorce was a “good”? Seriously?

I believe I explicitly stated that the evil of divorce was tolerated in the OT. Not sure where the confusion is.
We then see Christ changing the discipline of divorce as he elevates matrimonty to a sacrament. When Christ forbids divorce, are you saying he automatically makes all former divorce allowed under the law evil? I think not. Christ fulfills this law and gives us a new take on marriage.
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Divorce was a “discipline”? So marriage given by God to Adam and Eve under the natural law was a Church “discipline”? So marriage was not a good? It was neutral? Or was it bad then but good now?

I’m saying that your line of thinking regarding CITH & girl altar boys is equivalent to those who say something goes from evil to good because it is “approved”. I pointed out the flaw in that positivist logic.
In a similar way, having altar girls now does not change the good that was done by not having them in the past, and by having altar girls now we are not “tolerating an evil” we are expanding a discipline. If in the future they are no longer allowed, it will not make having them now evil.
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So banning women from the altar was “good” in the past. But banning them now would be “evil”? But in the future, if they are banned again, it would again be “good”?
When it comes right down to it, you and I can respectfully stand by our opinions as to the “good” of having altar girls or debating if they should be banned. The OP however was looking for Canon Law and the facts of why we have them now and the fact is that we have them now because 16 years ago the Pope said it was OK to have them.
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So now it’s 16 years ago? So you are admitting the '83 code did not allow them and that it was prohibited until 16 years ago?

Because that’s not what you said in your previous post.
 
You don`t see obscenities like that in the average parish!

Don`t forget this happened in The City of The (Fallen) Angels!

Seriously: it`s false to infer that these extreme Left LA abuses are universal.
 
The phenomenon of the altar girl is another pointless liturgical novelty introduced after Vatican II. The practice of male only altar servers is a long-standing tradition in the Church, which was used to encourage priestly vocations. I do not believe it was necessary to allow girls to become altar servers, nor do I think it helps the current priest shortage. Allowing altar girls was and is a novelty; it is a pointless change and a break with tradition. It would be for the good of the Church if altar girls were banned and boys were actively recruited to this role. I am sure many vocations could be fostered if priests would take the effort to encourage young men to serve the altar.
 
SunnaB16 said:
You don`t see obscenities like that in the average parish!

Don`t forget this happened in The City of The (Fallen) Angels!

Seriously: it`s false to infer that these extreme Left LA abuses are universal.
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I’ve been in two parishes were liturgical dance was advocated (and rejected thankfully). That event happened at a so called religious education conference. What was promoted there will be spread like cancer. We all need to be aware of the modernist agenda and fight against it.
 
TheDoctor said:
What do you mean by liturgical dancers? Oh please don’t tell me they make the altar servers “dance” during Mass. Are you kidding?:eek:
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Um,no. I’m not kidding.

During some Novus Ordo Masses they will. They hold those stupid bowls that look like witches’ pots with smoke coming out of them,too.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
Um,no. I’m not kidding.

During some Novus Ordo Masses they will. They hold those stupid bowls that look like witches’ pots with smoke coming out of them,too.
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Oh … my … goodness …
Who came up with that? That’s just dumb and so absolutely inappropriate…
That is the exact opposite of what I did when I trained new groups of altar servers… I synchronized movements and limited them to the plain necessary so that the eye of the participant in the pews would not be diverted from what was happening on the altar. I told my groups that they were not the center of all the attention, but God…
This silly dancing stuff is taking away from God.
 
DorianGregorian said:
The Vatican allows Bishops to allow Female Altar Servers, but it is at the discretion of the Bishops. The rubrics of TLM do not allow for Female Altar Servers.

In the US, only Bishop Bruskewitz does not allow Female Altar Servers in his Diocese.
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That seems logical because ever since I moved to Nebraska, I haven’t seen too many girl servers. That’s pretty cool.
 
Janet1983 said:
I found something interesting on liturgical dance… by his Eminence Francis Cardinal Arinze…
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Thank you for sharing that video — I know when I have seen ligurgical dance it has been in the context of a multi-cultural liturgy - Asian or African influences as the Cardinal shared where they have these as common parts of their liturgy - and I found it very moving as an entrance and offertory processional - it was prayerful, and not showy at all… I think it enhanced the adoration and worship - it wasn’t for show - it was kind of an outward sign of the entire congregation entering into the service - so sorry I know that isn’t how many feel here - but I found it really beautiful and appropriate.
 
Don’t we want to also encourage girls to be active in the Church too?

Not as priests but vocations as sisters, to become involved in the community… I know when that priest asked my daughter to go get one of her brothers it was embarassing for her - we tried to minimize it - but - I don’t know, I think it would have been better if the priest had let her serve, than in the future speak with the sacrastian who scheduled servers and just asked if he could only have male servers because that was his perference - even though our Bishop and the Pastor was o.k. with girl servers… :confused:
 
4elise said:
Don’t we want to also encourage girls to be active in the Church too?

Not as priests but vocations as sisters, to become involved in the community… I know when that priest asked my daughter to go get one of her brothers it was embarassing for her - we tried to minimize it - but - I don’t know, I think it would have been better if the priest had let her serve, than in the future speak with the sacrastian who scheduled servers and just asked if he could only have male servers because that was his perference - even though our Bishop and the Pastor was o.k. with girl servers… :confused:
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Agreed, what your priest did was not the way it should have been happened, and I hope that you have been able to find a reasonable solution. He certainly has the privilege to choose who he wants to serve for him, but to make the decision publicly is not correct.

And yes we do need to encourage girls to serve the Church and to consider voctations as Sisters and Nuns, but altar serving is almost purposefully designed to familiarize the server with the duties of a priest and have been seen as a way of encouraging priestly vocations for centuries.
 
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