S
SpiritusSanctus
Guest
And therefore you’re ignoring tradition. You’re ignoring the tradition of no female altar severs and all other teachings prior to Vatican II that have suddenly been dismissed.
- Status
S
SpiritusSanctus
Guest
I am following the Church, the pre-Vatican II Church.
O
Ockham
Guest
Diggerdomer uses the “its in the GIRM” as his sole defence of CITH. The point is CITH and altar girls are recent developments that have been declared liturgical abuses for centuries. They have entered into our modern practices out of disobedience.
F
franklinf
Guest
So were the popes wrong in condemning it previously?
2 + 2 =/= 5. Why was it wrong then and right now?
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
because we live in a world which women are taking over the leadership everywhere. your parish does not allow females in the Sanctuary yet, you have sufficient altar boys. in other parishes which allows females, no males are present. why? because naturally man stay away from places where women tend to take over. it is a danger move by some in the Church to allow such. besides by allowing women in the Sanctuary, one can see how the abuses are increasing. more and more women are getting greater role in the Church these days. the progressives have the intention to make us believe that it is ok for women to do many things in the Church. with that it wont be too long before they will become bishops and priests and we will have a Church made up of women only.
pay attention to the innovations and novelties in the Church. look at the Tradition of the Church. do you see a differences? why is it the pope constantly speaking of Tradition? what is he trying to say to us?
J
Janet1983
Guest
That might be a little to drastic, don’t you think? If this was a realistic thought, then the Quaker’s wouldn’t have any male ministers anymore as they allowed women to be minister in the early 1800s.
In 1880 Anna Howard Shaw was the first woman ordained in the Methodist Protestant Church, which later merged with other denominations to form the United Methodist Church.
Louisa Woosley was ordained in the Nolin Presbytery of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in 1889.
In 1889 Ella Niswonger was the first woman ordained in the United Brethren church, which later merged with other denominations to form the United Methodist Church.
In 1911 Ann Allebach was ordained at the First Mennonite Church of Philadelphia.
And those are some of the earlier ones… if your theory was true one would lead to the other, but it doesn’t.
Girl altar servers haven’t and will not lead to female priests within the Catholic Church. Other congregations are examples that even with female ministers the men are not pushed out of the office.
C
choy
Guest
taking over the leadership? when were altar servers ever part of the leadership?
you are over exaggerating the situation
C
choy
Guest
i never believe the Church is wrong before or after Vatican II
unlike you guys who believe that the Church is wrong after Vatican II. so i’m wondering why you’re still calling yourselves Catholic. don’t we say that being Catholic isn’t a pick-and-choose thing, that you have to accept ALL doctrines and teachings of the Church. so why can you reject Vatican II? isn’t that being a cafeteria catholic?
C
choy
Guest
we don’t follow tradition for the sake of following tradition
Jesus himself taught that. if a tradition has lost its meaning that people only “honor Him with their lips and not their hearts,” then that tradition is meaningless.
besides, altar servers are not a Church doctrine, it can be changed if the Church sees fit. much like celibacy of priests
J
Javl
Guest
That tradition is man made and does not fall under the category of Church teachings, therefore it is of little consequence. Female altar servers, so far, are not prohibited by the Magisterium. As the use of male altar servers can lead them to the priesthood, so can the use of female altar servers lead them to the religious life. Although I am a traditionalist, I cannot deny female altar servers.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
Shalom Aleichem
J
Javl
Guest
Please read my post #249. Even if altar girls are a recent development, there is no disobedience involved and no liturgical abuse. Unless it’s in the Canon of The Church,as promulgated by the Magisterium, we cannot disregard the use of female altar servers as ilicit or invalid. Remember, the Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit and IS the FINAL authority.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
Shalom Aleichem
C
ChurchTorch
Guest
No I am not. I am following what the Church directs. The Church sets the requirements not you or me. To put it bluntly She know more about this than you or I and she would NEVER allow female altar servers if it was deleterious to the Mass.
C
ChurchTorch
Guest
Nice!Please read my post #249. Even if altar girls are a recent development, there is no disobedience involved and no liturgical abuse. Unless it’s in the Canon of The Church,as promulgated by the Magisterium, we cannot disregard the use of female altar servers as ilicit or invalid. Remember, the Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit and IS the FINAL authority.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
Shalom Aleichem
C
ChurchTorch
Guest
That’s what I wonder about too. Why call yourself a Catholic when you continually take dissent from the Church? Trying to sell cafeteria catholicism as “traditionalism” is especially disconcerting.
C
CDNowak
Guest
As I pointed out (post 136), and as other have repeatedly pointed out, the practice of altar girls did begin well before they were allowed, making their use at once disobedient and a liturgical abuse. This was largely not a matter of canon law, but liturgical law (how many times do I have to say this?). For example, in a governing document on the 1970 Missal (Liturgicae Instaurationes) we find: “7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.”
Of course there is no question of validity, we are not talking about a sacrament, or even a sacramental (the neglected Instituted Ministries, aka remnants of minor orders). And no one denies that the Church recognizes the practice as currently licit. We are arguing from prudence, not taking a dogmatic stance about a matter of discipline.
Likewise this is not an issue of a Church council, as the New Missal which came after the council was not even in conformity with the Council’s constitution on the liturgy. Further, this was not approved for thirty years after said council, ten years after the revision of the code of canon law (on which the decision was made, ignoring the universal tradition in liturgical law against the practice).
Of course, if this is a matter of little consequence (Javl) or can be changed as the Church sees fit (choy) then why do those who oppose it need to get over [them]selves (Church Torch)? How is it hubris (ibid.) to have an opinion within what the Church allows?
@Church Torch, don’t you think it funny that there is very little use of the word I by those who, by your claim, are letting their egos get in the way of a reasonable discussion?
C
choy
Guest
CDNowak,
what we are overly concerned here about is that there are SOME who in the name of Traditionalism, claim that certain practices are inferior or an outright abuse and invalid. so by what right would most people have to declare something that the Church declars valid and acceptable, as something invalid and unacceptable? whats happening is these people are now acting as if they are Church authorities who decide on these matters by making this declaration, and this would confuse people who would know less. in fact, those who would know less would think that the Church has no direction at all. because like these people would claim that COTT is more superior to CITH which is also disrespectful. now why would the Church allow CITH when it is disrespectful? these claims by these few people here are insane and is very much misleading and is nothing more than promoting a personal agenda within the Church
what we are overly concerned here about is that there are SOME who in the name of Traditionalism, claim that certain practices are inferior or an outright abuse and invalid. so by what right would most people have to declare something that the Church declars valid and acceptable, as something invalid and unacceptable? whats happening is these people are now acting as if they are Church authorities who decide on these matters by making this declaration, and this would confuse people who would know less. in fact, those who would know less would think that the Church has no direction at all. because like these people would claim that COTT is more superior to CITH which is also disrespectful. now why would the Church allow CITH when it is disrespectful? these claims by these few people here are insane and is very much misleading and is nothing more than promoting a personal agenda within the Church
C
CDNowak
Guest
There have been one or two posters over the course of 17 pages that have said it is currently an abuse. There are many more who have pointed out that its origin was in abuse and yet both receive the same response. The matter, as I have said a dozen time on this thread, is one of prudence, and attempting to shut down discussion (ala, Church Torch or michaeldaniels) is ridiculous.
Neither side is without blame in acting as if they speak for the Church, one side is at least citing Church documents however.
There is room in the Church for many personal agendas, indeed nearly complete opposites on this issue. If, however, you doubt the sanity (ad hominem, btw, is very disrespectful) of the those who uphold the traditional practices of the Church than I would suggest that you recuse yourself from the “Traditional Catholic” board here at CAF.
H
Holly3278
Guest
Personally, I am against female altar servers in both the traditional Latin Mass and in the Novus Ordo Mass.
O
Ockham
Guest
Pope John Paul II ruled against altar girls. What more convincing do you need?Please read my post #249. Even if altar girls are a recent development, there is no disobedience involved and no liturgical abuse. Unless it’s in the Canon of The Church,as promulgated by the Magisterium, we cannot disregard the use of female altar servers as ilicit or invalid. Remember, the Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit and IS the FINAL authority.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
Shalom Aleichem
C
ciero
Guest
He did? When and where can we find this enlightening news?
- Status