Girl Altar Servers

[Javl]

Any proof for that assertion?

No. None. Just observation.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach
Shalom Aleichem

 

[CDNowak]

if there are things you don’t agree with the Church, then you can express your disagreement in charity. berating those who accept practices approved by the Church is not charitable.

Again, pot meet kettle…

if you don’t want to attend masses with girl altar servers, then don’t. you have your choice. but don’t make those who attend that mass feel like they are such evil people.

And if you want to attend Mass with girl servers, then do so. Don’t attack those who do not wish to do so. BTW, we don’t always have a choice, the way gas prices are headed I will lose my choice rather shortly.
choy;6535592**:

i am agruing ad hominem

because the problem here is not Traditional Catholicism, but the attitude of some specific people. how can i make an argument that doesn’t target an individual or this small gourp of people when they are the problem itself?

Love the sinner, hate the sin? You can argue against their positions, but rather those for altar girls have been increasingly arguing, as you admitted, ad hominem.

Be that as it may, this topic is not an issue for the TLM, as girl altar servers are not used. Something strikes as just not quite right to start this topic, or other topics related to the current Mass, in this forum, then criticize the type of poster that responds.

The poster who began the thread -]may have been/-] probably was a troll. However, tu quoque in no way justifies ad hominem. There are a number of poster citing tradition (and one may argue, Tradition) and they are being lectured on their “hubris” for doing so. Inasmuch as this is home turf for Traditional minded Catholics one should expect to encounter arguments from tradition. If that is disturbing to certain non-traditional Catholics, then yes they should excuse themselves.

I someone posted a criticism of the TLM in the L & S Forum, would it not be unfair for those who actually know the TLM to be discouraged from posting? This topic is not at issue in Traditional Catholic spirituality.

It would be fair to discourage those who militated against the OF, yes. I have done so there. As far as this topic not being at issue, I believe there has been at least one case where a bishop tried to impose altar girls on an EF Mass (post-SP, yet). This rightly failed, but because it could not be demanded of a community to allow altar girls. As I said, OP was a troll, doesn’t justify the actions of counter-trolls.

 

[choy]

Again, pot meet kettle…

And if you want to attend Mass with girl servers, then do so. Don’t attack those who do not wish to do so. BTW, we don’t always have a choice, the way gas prices are headed I will lose my choice rather shortly.

i’m not attacking those like you who wish to attend mass with male-only altar servers. i’m attacking those who belittle people like me in general who accept the (not-so) new practices of the Church

they are valid practices of the Church and no real Catholic should be calling them wrong and evil because there are a greater majority who are brought closer to God by these practices

Love the sinner, hate the sin? You can argue against their positions, but rather those for altar girls have been increasingly arguing, as you admitted, ad hominem.

still, my arguments are valid

well, you seem to be loving these sinners but not those on the other side of the fence like myself. you castigate me but not them.

The poster who began the thread -]may have been/-] probably was a troll. However, tu quoque in no way justifies ad hominem. There are a number of poster citing tradition (and one may argue, Tradition) and they are being lectured on their “hubris” for doing so. Inasmuch as this is home turf for Traditional minded Catholics one should expect to encounter arguments from tradition. If that is disturbing to certain non-traditional Catholics, then yes they should excuse themselves.

again, i am not against the arguments itself, but how the arguments are being made. some people here are just in the habit of berating those who are performing valid practices and belittling them for following what the Church allows. thats not right at all

It would be fair to discourage those who militated against the OF, yes. I have done so there. As far as this topic not being at issue, I believe there has been at least one case where a bishop tried to impose altar girls on an EF Mass (post-SP, yet). This rightly failed, but because it could not be demanded of a community to allow altar girls. As I said, OP was a troll, doesn’t justify the actions of counter-trolls.

i wonder why you’re not going after all trolls. bias?

 

[Onegin]

they are valid practices of the Church and no real Catholic should be calling them wrong and evil because there are a greater majority who are brought closer to God by these practices.

Still, using the example that a particular practice may bring someone closer to God isn’t exactly a sterling argument for it’s widespread use.

For instance, why shouldn’t we consider mainstreaming liturgical dancing which is currently considered an abuse? I’m sure there are many people who would claim that participating this practice brings them closer to God.

 

[CDNowak]

i’m not attacking those like you who wish to attend mass with male-only altar servers. i’m attacking those who belittle people like me in general who accept the (not-so) new practices of the Church

Again, 1990s is a brand-spankin’-new practice. (Unsure of exact year, perhaps someone can find the document…). That still doesn’t justify attacking anyone.

they are valid practices of the Church and no real Catholic should be calling them wrong and evil because there are a greater majority who are brought closer to God by these practices

Licit, yes (no such thing as validity of altar servers). Beneficial for the great majority, debatable, if you can stop attacking people.

still, my arguments are valid

Fallacy, in this case admitted ad hominem, indicates an intrinsically invalid argument. (What do they teach in schools these days?)

well, you seem to be loving these sinners but not those on the other side of the fence like myself. you castigate me but not them.

Actually I don’t think they are sinning. I think some of them are misguided, but the conversation could be swayed by someone finding the 1994 (?) letter that permitted altar girls in the first place. Then it would be “he said vs 1600+ years of Popes and Councils said” but “JPII said vs JPII later said” (which is far more interesting). I castigate you (and not just you Church Torch also) because you are not arguing, you are attacking. I am not the Church, I don’t have any reason to be fair, although I could play much dirtier than I am (I would start with a false generalization about those who support altar girls, perhaps). While some of the others are tasteless and I distance myself from their lack of logic, they have been far less abusive of other posters, and have even apologized when they crossed a line.

again, i am not against the arguments itself, but how the arguments are being made. some people here are just in the habit of berating those who are performing valid practices and belittling them for following what the Church allows. thats not right at all

Tu quoque.

i wonder why you’re not going after all trolls. bias?

Just because you disagree with them doesn’t make them trolls. As I said above, I only see two or three posters as attacking instead of arguing, and they are taking near identical positions. You could assert that I take this course because it better serves what I believe, but that would be conjecture on your part.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

oh, i like this forum a lot. i think those who need to stay out are those who practice bigotry and try to hide behind Traditional Catholicism. they give Traditional Catholicism a bad name

its funny that you guys are painting this in a way that we are anti-Traditional Catholicsm, when we’re not. what we’re asking for here is a fair treatment by some who try to elevate Traditional Catholicism above other approved practices in the Church, and dismiss us as inferior. these are the people you should be going after. i know you’re not one of them, but you should read our entire posts and see what we’re all about and don’t buy into this propaganda by some to paint the reverse that we are attacking Traditional Catholicism. no. we’re attacking the bigotry promoted by A FEW and using the guise of Traditional Catholicism to promote that bigorty. i’m sure you as a Traditional Catholic wouldn’t want that.

Who is it here that gives Traditional Catholicism a bad name? Just asking, because I can’t point out anyone here who does that calls themselves a Traditional Catholic.

And you’re not going to get a “fair treatment” if you don’t give other Traditional Catholics the same treatment you expect to get.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

i’m not attacking those like you who wish to attend mass with male-only altar servers. i’m attacking those who belittle people like me in general who accept the (not-so) new practices of the Church

they are valid practices of the Church and no real Catholic should be calling them wrong and evil because there are a greater majority who are brought closer to God by these practices

Females being altar servers IS wrong. Just because Paul VI and John Paul II had no problem with it doesn’t mean we should dismiss what pre-Vatican II Popes said about it. Something else to point out is that more Popes have said it’s wrong than those that have said it’s fine.

 

[franklinf]

wow, you’re accusing the Vatican to caving into disobedience? so the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide the Church anymore?

or is it just you who accuse the Church of disobedience when they do something you are not in agreement with. are you better than the Vatican?

Can guide but can’t make follow

Didn’t accuse the Church of disobedience. Bishops and priests within the Church are who disobeyed

 

[ChurchTorch]

Can guide but can’t make follow

Didn’t accuse the Church of disobedience. Bishops and priests within the Church are who disobeyed

Crazy…

 

[ChurchTorch]

Females being altar servers IS wrong. Just because Paul VI and John Paul II had no problem with it doesn’t mean we should dismiss what pre-Vatican II Popes said about it. Something else to point out is that more Popes have said it’s wrong than those that have said it’s fine.

The Catholic Church says differently.

You lose.

It really is that simple.

 

[ChurchTorch]

Who is it here that gives Traditional Catholicism a bad name? Just asking, because I can’t point out anyone here who does that calls themselves a Traditional Catholic.

And you’re not going to get a “fair treatment” if you don’t give other** Traditional Catholics** the same treatment you expect to get.

There’s no such thing unless you’re speaking of some sort of a Protestant sect that calls themselves that.

 

[CDNowak]

Females being altar servers IS wrong. Just because Paul VI and John Paul II had no problem with it doesn’t mean we should dismiss what pre-Vatican II Popes said about it. Something else to point out is that more Popes have said it’s wrong than those that have said it’s fine.

I will take choy up on his challenge, by challenging you:

Put together a coherent argument that Pope John Paul II didn’t have the authority to change the practice of altar girls in 1994 (?), based on the clear and consistent practice that he himself had previously upheld. It is not enough to say it was consistently condemned until ~15 years ago, we actually have to build the argument.

 

[CDNowak]

…

…

…

Torch,

It is fact that bishops and priests allowed girls to serve at Mass for decades (at least going back to the 70s and I’ve heard 50’s). Permission for girls to serve was not granted until 1990s. It is therefore fact that bishops and priests were disobedient in this matter (not to mention a host of other issues, from Liturgical to breaking their ordination promises…).

The Catholic Church, in communion with the Orthodox Church has very virulently condemned the practice of altar girls, and did so until 1990s. Then one rite of one Church changed its practice, rather abruptly. 2000 years of established practice generally requires a reason to overthrow, and it is a legitimate opinion that the change was imprudent.

What you are promoting is not fides quarens intellectum, nor fides et ratio, but fideism and ultramonatism (condemned position, for their misunderstanding of authority, btw).

 

[Javl]

Torch,

It is fact that bishops and priests allowed girls to serve at Mass for decades (at least going back to the 70s and I’ve heard 50’s). Permission for girls to serve was not granted until 1990s. It is therefore fact that bishops and priests were disobedient in this matter (not to mention a host of other issues, from Liturgical to breaking their ordination promises…).

The Catholic Church, in communion with the Orthodox Church has very virulently condemned the practice of altar girls, and did so until 1990s. Then one rite of one Church changed its practice, rather abruptly. 2000 years of established practice generally requires a reason to overthrow, and it is a legitimate opinion that the change was imprudent.

What you are promoting is not fides quarens intellectum, nor fides et ratio, but fideism and ultramonatism (condemned position, for their misunderstanding of authority, btw).

Going back to the 50’s, I don’t remember any girl altar servers, in fact it wasn’t until the early 80’s that the practice started. I do remember the uproar then, but Pope JP II said that it was allowable. There were also complaints about the NO mass, that it was too Protestant in form and there was no feeling of spirituality, but everything slowly calmed down. I’ve learned to accept it all. After all, manmade traditions, 2000 years old or not, are unimportant. the major thing is that we still have the celebration of the Eucharist, which is unchanged, whether in the Latin or Novus Ordo mass.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach
Shalom Aleichem.

 

[Ockham]

and since they are approved now, they are not seen as an abuse anymore

This argument is far too common yet never ceases to amaze me. Through disobedience, Modernists get their way and then use obedience as their defence.

“Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: ‘Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.’ We too have forbidden this practice in the same words…”
–Pope Benedict XIV, Encyclical Allatae Sunt, July 26, 1755

 

[CDNowak]

Going back to the 50’s, I don’t remember any girl altar servers, in fact it wasn’t until the early 80’s that the practice started. I do remember the uproar then, but Pope JP II said that it was allowable. There were also complaints about the NO mass, that it was too Protestant in form and there was no feeling of spirituality, but everything slowly calmed down. I’ve learned to accept it all. After all, manmade traditions, 2000 years old or not, are unimportant. the major thing is that we still have the celebration of the Eucharist, which is unchanged, whether in the Latin or Novus Ordo mass.

Regardless of where they started in your locale (and some were much earlier than others), they were not allowed until the mid-90s (I remember quite clearly the destruction of what little camaraderie there was). I am trying to find the document that allowed them, but it seems that no one has it online.

The changes to the liturgy can hardly be called unimportant, as the ancient saying goes: the rule of prayer is the rule of belief. I don’t think the rise in the number of Catholics who don’t believe the Catholic faith is pure coincidence.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

The Catholic Church says differently.

You lose.

It really is that simple.

You lose for a comment like that. There are a lot of things the Church says today that is right that was wrong before Vatican II. Once wrong, always wrong, regardless of what is said today.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

I will take choy up on his challenge, by challenging you:

Put together a coherent argument that Pope John Paul II didn’t have the authority to change the practice of altar girls in 1994 (?), based on the clear and consistent practice that he himself had previously upheld. It is not enough to say it was consistently condemned until ~15 years ago, we actually have to build the argument.

The fact is, just because a Pope has authority to change something doesn’t mean he should. Really, a Pope doesn’t actually have the authority to change something that was previously declared wrong by the pre-Vatican II Church unless it wasn’t really wrong, though nearly everything that was ruled as wrong before Vatican II, if not everything, was indeed wrong. Sure, people will say that a Pope does have the authority to change such a thing, but really he doesn’t. He does have the authority to change, but if it’s not a good change then what’s the point? Authority is an excuse often used for Paul VI when people say he had the authority to altar the Mass when really what he did wouldn’t have been considered valid by the Church before Vatican II. Many Popes before Vatican II even wrote encyclicals on how female altar servers is wrong. Tradition is something that can never be transformed, so can we simply ignore tradition by accepting what Paul VI and John Paul II said about such practices? Female altar servers used to be something you’d see in Protestant churches from time to time, then the Vatican II reform came and Paul VI threw that in there. Really, it makes the Catholic Church seem so anti-Catholic when you have girls serving at the altar. If women want to assist they join the convent and become nuns, not altar servers or priests. The Mass Jesus created certainly did not have females serving at the altar, so why should we throw away tradition? Why should we accept a practice that was originally considered wrong by the Church?

Something that was wrong for over 1,000 years clearly should be trusted more than something that has only been considered ok for 41 years. Should we trust the pre-Vatican II Popes when they uphold tradition by saying it’s wrong, or trust Paul VI and JPII, just two Popes who say it’s fine? That is the question to ask in this situation.

 

[Onegin]

The Catholic Church says differently.

You lose.

It really is that simple.

Because, after all, the use of female altar servers is an immovable tenet of Catholic doctrine upon which lay people may never disagree!

 

[Janet1983]

You lose for a comment like that. There are a lot of things the Church says today that is right that was wrong before Vatican II. Once wrong, always wrong, regardless of what is said today.

I didn’t realize that the gender of altar servers was an infallible dogmatic issue.
If it isn’t who is to say that the Vatican cannot change it’s policy over the course of years? As far as I remember the Church requires obedience for both, the fallible as well as the infallible teachings.