Girl Altar Serviers

[hudson]

Keep the arguments about a male priesthood separate from alter servers they are not the same thing despite arguements that one leads to another. Jesus was limited to his time and place and we ought to leave Jesus of Nazareth in that time and place. Would Jesus “the Christ” be limited to our human form which includes our socio-cultural context?

I don’t buy (but honour as a Catholic) the argument that just because Jesus selected men (and did he?) that the priesthood should be male? I think that the Anglicans-Episcopaleans are not confused at all when they allowed women priests…spirituality - informed by gender and sex experience - has its place at the altar as I said before and that is what our church is sorely missing.

Again, Jesus, yes he was a man - Jesus of Nazareth…but who does the priest represent or is “personal Christi”…I believe “Christ” is a different concept than Jesus of Nazareth…so even there we have some arguements in favour of women priesthood…in the nature of the Christ not the limits of Jesus of Nazareth.

Anyways, that my friend is not what this posting is about…it is about alter servers…and where does it say (within our church) that the male only arguement even applies

Bruce

Jesus was fully God and fully MAN. Get over it. No matter how hard you want to hope for it, Jesus will never change to a woman and his Apostles will never become women. You think the destruction of the Episcopalian/Anglican Church by liberal feminist and homosexual activists is a good thing? Their Church is falling apart at the seams because of this. Yet you want to try and change the 2000 year Tradition of the Church to support your modern view of the world. LOL. Oh and it is spelled Altar not alter.

 

[LightBound]

Thats exactly what i was thinking. Their can never be women priests so It could’nt lead to a vocation for women. It should only belong to boys because they are the only ones that can have a vocation and we do need many more priests in this day. Just my personal opinion.

No LittleHannah, males aren’t the only ones that can have a “vocation”. Females have and most certainly do. Marriage and the Religious Life (consecreted or non-consecreted) are both vocations. I realize that you and others are referring to only the priesthood, but keep in mind when you speak of altar servers and vocations that an altar server, EMHC, choir, lector, etc are all things that can lead to a vocation (be it a priest, Religious, Deacon, or married man for men and those I listed above for women. Thus, all those things further increase being an active participant in one’s parish or the Universal Church.

 

[promethius]

So when the Church does not allow it, you are also fine with that? I know of parishes and at I have heard of one diocese in the US that girls are not allowed to be altar servers. I believe other countries (I think Mexico is one), they are not allowed in the entire country.

Yes, the teachings of the church as regards discipline are binding and are subject to change. If the church allows it, and the Bishop and Parish Pastor have determined to allow it, then it is fine. If at any point they disallow it, then it is also fine. That is why, like I said, there needs to be a poll option for “I don’t care”

 

[ExGratia]

Once while visiting a parish, I saw a pretty teenaged girl in a much too short dress and 4 inch black patent leather stilettos. She went back to the sacristy and came back in an altar server robe and 4 inch black patent leather stilettos. There was an audible murmur in the congregation and I said a quick prayer that she wouldn’t fall while assisting the priest. I’ve also seen girls in flip flops and with shiny things in their hair. This will probably have many people up in arms, but I find girls on the altar to be a distraction.

If the bishop says that female altar servers are okay, well then okay. They are going to have adopt a dress code though!

side note: Women’s centers of gravity are different then men and my fiance has said the cross that is carried during procession is quite heavy. I am happy to be a woman and to have different roles than the men in my life due to physiology, tradition and history! I am mistrustful of blurring gender roles.

 

[trickster]

This poll is not comprehensive, since you did not include an option for “do not care”.

The church allows them, ergo I do not care if it’s a male or female altar server. I do not “like to see girl altar servers” nor do I dislike to see them.

What I like to see are reverent youths who are devoutly serving the mass and at the same time learning more deeply about the sacrifice that is going on.

Incidently, since I don’t care, I found that the answer “yes” was closer to my position than no, so I did vote.

REVERENT YOUTH! What an awesome answer promethius…sometimes we do such a disservice to today’s youth from the perspective of our experience. I remember the pasison I had in my teens for the Lord and I think that you hit it right on the head…I think that I need some of that youthful passion…good point!

Bruce

 

[trickster]

It was certainly the case. The history of altar servers is that they started out being the “minor orders”, boys who certainly were being grooomed for the priesthood. But then it became more the norm for any boys to do so, to give them more direct exposure to the priesthood. As such, it was not a qualification at all that they expressed any interest. When I was a boy,I really never had much interest in becoming a priest; but I can certainly say that many times being a server and that close to the priest would make me think of the possibilities.

Tafan, that is interesting…cause I am sure that there is a historical context for alter boys becoming incorporated into the mass. Is this a feudal middle ages thing…or does it have an earlier history? I am fascinated with this because it is, yet another facet of our church, that we take for granted.

Where did the “minor orders” come from? My alter serving days were in the late mid-late 60’s and those words do not ring any meaning to me…and I agree with Debra that many of us who did serve in the mass had no intentions of being a priest…but yes your right…because we assisted the priest and went into the room where he prepared, the possibilty of the priesthood was always presented to us without any words (the sacristy, right)?

Bruce

 

[Brendan]

Here is the Church teaching on the subject. Altar girls maybe used

1. If the local bishop allows them in his diocese
2. If the pastor allows them in his parish
3. If the celebrant wishes to use them

If a pastor chooses not to allow them in his parish, then they are not permitted. If a visiting priest or associate pastor chooses not to allow them at the Mass he is celebrating,

If any of those authorities reject altar girls, then the Church does not permit them in that location at that time.

In addition, the local bishop needs to insure that all the parishes that use altar girls receive the correct guidance and instruction so that vocations to the priesthood are not hampered.

In addition, while no lay person has a right to serve at the altar, parishes have an obligation to recruit and maintain boys as altar servers due to the influence that altar service has on formatting vocations to the priesthood.

Below is the actual text from the Congregation for Divine Worship to the US Bishops in July 2001

IIn accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)

With respect to whether the practice of women serving at the altar would truly be of pastoral advantage in the local pastoral situation, it is perhaps helpful to recall that the non-ordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar, rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the Sacred Pastors (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 4, cf. also can 228, §1, Interdicasterial Instruction Esslesiae de mysterio, August 15, 1997, no. 4, see Notitiae 34 [1998] 9-42). Therefore, in the event that Your Excellency found it opportune to authorize service of women at the altar, it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations.

 

[trickster]

So when the Church does not allow it, you are also fine with that? I know of parishes and at I have heard of one diocese in the US that girls are not allowed to be altar servers. I believe other countries (I think Mexico is one), they are not allowed in the entire country.

I would not be “fine with it” as it is a form of discrimination…but I would have to accept the decision of the bishop .,… not everything our church does haves our agreement does it…but we are bound to a degree by the decisions of our shepherds…

BrUCE

 

[trickster]

I have no trouble believing that many of the girls take it more seriously; I understand the difference between boys and girls in behavior quite well. But that can be addressed with discipline.

If it help lead you to the study of theology,then it seems the argument that it should be a tool to lead boys to the priesthood is certainly valid.

I agree…the fact that it leads servers (regardless of sex) to a ministry is certainly a focus that can expand the original intention of “minor orders” to a contemporary and more meaningful place…

Bruce

 

[trickster]

Here is the Church teaching on the subject. Altar girls maybe used

1. If the local bishop allows them in his diocese
2. If the pastor allows them in his parish
3. If the celebrant wishes to use them

If a pastor chooses not to allow them in his parish, then they are not permitted. If a visiting priest or associate pastor chooses not to allow them at the Mass he is celebrating,

If any of those authorities reject altar girls, then the Church does not permit them in that location at that time.

In addition, the local bishop needs to insure that all the parishes that use altar girls receive the correct guidance and instruction so that vocations to the priesthood are not hampered.

In addition, while no lay person has a right to serve at the altar, parishes have an obligation to recruit and maintain boys as altar servers due to the influence that altar service has on formatting vocations to the priesthood.

Below is the actual text from the Congregation for Divine Worship to the US Bishops in July 2001

OK…so it is a long standing practice that the alter boy is being groomed for the priesthood. That is something I never knew and now I learned something new.

However, an original purpose does not eliminate new purposes…it does not mean abandonning the time honoured tradition either…so what is the balance between the two?

Boys are encouraged to be priests outside of the role of alter serving, girls are inspired in their alter service calls, we can become fully inclusive in this without negatively affecting the tradition of “minor orders” it seems to me… but we need more gender neutral language in this subject for sure.

Bruce

 

[promethius]

Once while visiting a parish, I saw a pretty teenaged girl in a much too short dress and 4 inch black patent leather stilettos. She went back to the sacristy and came back in an altar server robe and 4 inch black patent leather stilettos. There was an audible murmur in the congregation

This seems, then, like it was a GOOD thing for the girl to be an altar server, since she immediately covered up her inappropriate dress with Robes.

I hope the murmer from the congregation was one of appreciation for the improvement in her presentation

and I said a quick prayer that she wouldn’t fall while assisting the priest.

Yes, we should always be concerned with safety. Perhaps you should have the priest ask her to wear shoes that are appropriate and not a safety concern…?

I’ve also seen girls in flip flops and with shiny things in their hair.

Yes, but boys aren’t immune to having flip flops on, or unkempt hair either. The standard should be reverence, not gender based

This will probably have many people up in arms, but I find girls on the altar to be a distraction.

If you can’t look at female altar servers without being distracted, then the answer, as per St Francis, is not to keep women out of their valid role in the public sphere, but rather to school your eyes in such discipline that you never look on the altar servers.

This is your burden to bear, don’t lay it on the girls…

If the bishop says that female altar servers are okay, well then okay. They are going to have adopt a dress code though!

I agree, for the boys AND the girls.

side note: Women’s centers of gravity are different then men and my fiance has said the cross that is carried during procession is quite heavy. I am happy to be a woman and to have different roles than the men in my life due to physiology, tradition and history! I am mistrustful of blurring gender roles.

This is actually true, on average, women have less upper body strength than men, and that does play out in the case of lowering their center of gravity towards their hips.

However, I’ve never felt a processional cross heavier than 25 pounds, and it only needs to be carried a hundred feat at most. Unless a girl has a severe disability or is too young and small to lift 25 pounds, in both cases they shouldn’t be serving, then carrying the cross should be no problem.

Finally, blurring gender roles is a little bit of a misnomer here. After all, we have the example of “deaconess” Pheobe, who, if we understand first century parlance of deaconry, the word was applied to servers as well as those who served as deacons that we know of today. In other words, female servers of the church go back all the way to biblical times.

 

[Bev17243]

I would never say that women priests are not within the Catholic Church…who knows what will happen in 500 years

How do you explain to a little girl who feels called to serve mass with the priest? In all cultures, humans have special or unique “counter” callings (i.e Joan of Arc) outside of the gender role the times and space have allowed that girl or boy?

Bruce

women priests are NOT biblical. Trying to “reinvent” the church teachings have never gotten anyone to a good place.

 

[Brendan]

Where did the “minor orders” come from? My alter serving days were in the late mid-late 60’s and those words do not ring any meaning to me…

The Minor Orders have existed in the Church since Roman times. They still exist in the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, but were eliminated in the Roman Church by Pope Paul VI in the early 70’s.

Men in the minor orders are considered to be clerics, and thus wear clerical collars, but they have not received the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

They were ordained (small ‘o’ - indicating a directive, not a Sacrament), by the bishop for service in various capacities.

The Minor Orders included ordained Porters (who carried things like the processional cross and candles), Readers, who could read the Epistle or chant the Psalms and antiphons, and Acolyte, who was entitled to touch the Sacred Vessels and prepare the altar. - In is these roles that the altar boys emulated and that is why they were allowed to wear the clerical cassock and alb.

The most well know was the Sub-Deacon. In the Tridentine Mass, it was the Sub-Deacon’s responsibility to act as Lector and read the Epistles. The presence of a Sub-Deacon (along with a Deacon) was required for a Tridentine High Mass.

We have a Chaldean Sub-Deacon in our parish. He vests for Mass, takes priority for Lectoring (by law) and assists in the distribution of Holy Communion. He is also permitted, as an ordained Acolyte, to assist in the purification of the Sacred Vessels.

 

[hudson]

Finally, blurring gender roles is a little bit of a misnomer here. After all, we have the example of “deaconess” Pheobe, who, if we understand first century parlance of deaconry, the word was applied to servers as well as those who served as deacons that we know of today. In other words, female servers of the church go back all the way to biblical times.

Negative. These “deaconesses” were there to assist in the baptism of females as to not cause scandal(the women were unclothed). There is no comparison of these “deaconesses” to ordained Deacons we have today.

 

[Brendan]

I would not be “fine with it” as it is a form of discrimination…
BrUCE

It is not discrimination, as no lay person has a right to serve at the altar. If a girl is not a server and a boy is, she has been denied nothing that she has a right to.

Therefore, she, nor anyone else, would have cause to complain.

 

[SteveGC]

Here is the Church teaching on the subject. Altar girls maybe used

1. If the local bishop allows them in his diocese
2. If the pastor allows them in his parish
3. If the celebrant wishes to use them

If a pastor chooses not to allow them in his parish, then they are not permitted. If a visiting priest or associate pastor chooses not to allow them at the Mass he is celebrating,

If any of those authorities reject altar girls, then the Church does not permit them in that location at that time.

In addition, the local bishop needs to insure that all the parishes that use altar girls receive the correct guidance and instruction so that vocations to the priesthood are not hampered.

In addition, while no lay person has a right to serve at the altar, parishes have an obligation to recruit and maintain boys as altar servers due to the influence that altar service has on formatting vocations to the priesthood.

Below is the actual text from the Congregation for Divine Worship to the US Bishops in July 2001

This ^^

…is why I voted “no”. It is implicit here that, with respect to altar servers, Rome advocates for males and allows females with special conditions. Agreeing with this implied preference is NOT the dark-aged discriminatory, misogynistic, male-superiority power move that many feminists and modernists in our Church want to make it out to be. It is simply the noble, traditional reality of our Church which understands the core beauty of the diversity of roles that males and females play in the life of the Church and the family. I believe the addition of altar girls has disrupted that noble character of our Church.

 

[Bezant]

It doesn’t matter to me.

 

[ExGratia]

" If you can’t look at female altar servers without being distracted, then the answer, as per St Francis, is not to keep women out of their valid role in the public sphere, but rather to school your eyes in such discipline that you never look on the altar servers.

This is your burden to bear, don’t lay it on the girls…"quote

“burden to bear”…I think you misunderstand the distraction. Your accusation of burden seems to imply something else…it is the irreverence that is distracting. Perhaps I should do something about it (such as talk to the priest in charge about the lack of reverence, or to the girl to let her know she has dignity and shouldn’t dress like that while serving on our Lord’s altar), but I think you misunderstood. You’ve inspired me to say something next time I visit if the situation hasn’t been resolved!

 

[Brendan]

OK…so it is a long standing practice that the alter boy is being groomed for the priesthood. That is something I never knew and now I learned something new.

However, an original purpose does not eliminate new purposes…it does not mean abandonning the time honoured tradition either…so what is the balance between the two?

Boys are encouraged to be priests outside of the role of alter serving, girls are inspired in their alter service calls, we can become fully inclusive in this without negatively affecting the tradition of “minor orders” it seems to me… but we need more gender neutral language in this subject for sure.

Bruce

It is more than “an original purpose”, it has been shown that serving at the altar encourages priestly vocations. That comes directly from the Vatican

Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)

A great example is my own parish. We have only altar boys, and that has been true for at least the last decade since the pastor has been here.

Out of a parish of about 950 families, we have 1-2 men from our parish go into the seminary each year. We have had 12 men from our parish ordained to the priesthood in the last 10 years. We have 4 in the seminary right now, at various stages, which is actually a record low 2 are studying for the diocesan priesthood, and two for the priesthood in religious life.

The record of similarly sized parishes in our Archdiocese (or even those that are much larger) that have altar girls, is substantially less.

Bruce, what size is your parish, and how many men have been ordained from your parish in the last several years?

 

[promethius]

Negative. These “deaconesses” were there only to assist in the baptism of females as to not cause scandal(the women were unclothed). There is no comparison of these “deaconesses” to ordained Deacons we have today. I suggest you read the following. It will help clear the subject up for you.

I do not need anything “cleared” up for me, because you either misread or are deliberately misleading people about what I said.

What I stated was exactly that these deaconesses were NOT deacons as we understand them today, but rather that they were “servers” during religious rights… in other words, that Pheobe is an example of how women could be used as altar servers, NOT as priests or deacons.

I’m fully aware of what Pheobe was, and if you did this mischaracterization of my words deliberately I request your apology.