Girl or Guy?

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All I will say in response to the reason they are having surgery is that the Church forbids mutalation of the human body because it is a Temple of the Holy Spirit.
If people want to go to Heaven they must stop justifing their wrong doings change their lives and ask God for forgiveness.
God is full of mercy and compassion.
Repent go and sin no more.

Antrim
Antrim, are speeking for yourself??? You don’t need to answer that!!😃

What follows is something that I posted on another thread.
I do hope that you all will read through and hopefully do a bit of research. I do have facts and sources to back up what follows and will make it obvious if I’m expressing an opinion. Also I have made BOLD things that I feel are most important.

As posted ealier,I quote from a Vatican released document in 2003.

"After years of study, the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document concluding that “sex-change” procedures do not change a person’s gender in the eyes of the church.

The Vatican document’s specific points include:
1 An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.
2 But a source familiar with the document said recent medical evidence suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance.
3 A provision giving religious superiors administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure. In most cases of expulsion from religious life, the superior must conduct a trial.
4 A recommendation of psychiatric treatment and spiritual counseling for transsexual priests. It suggests they can continue to exercise their ministry privately if it does not cause scandal.
5 A conclusion that those who undergo sex-change operations are unsuitable candidates for priesthood and religious life because of mental instability.
6 A conclusion that people who have undergone a sex-change operation cannot enter into a valid marriage, either because they would be marrying someone of the same sex in the eyes of the church or because their mental state casts doubt on their ability to make and uphold their marriage vows.
7 An affirmation of the validity of marriages in which one partner later undergoes the procedure, unless a church tribunal determines that a transsexual disposition predated the wedding ceremony.
"

What people don’t realize is that this document came out in response to the fact that an Italian priest had a sex change operation back in the late 1980s. It was prepared by Fr.Navarrete a Jesuit priest, now a Cardinal, an expert on canon law.

“specific point” #2.

However, he was not an expert on sexual matters so he turned to some one that was supposed to be. Dr. Paul McHugh of John Hopkins University. McHugh became the Vaticans advisor on sexual matters. John Hopkins was one of the first institutions in the States to do Sexual Reasignment Surgery ( SRS ). “In the late 1970s, the climate began to change. The first signs were seen at Johns Hopkins, where the chairman of the Psychiatry department, Dr. Joel Elkes, was replaced by Dr. Paul McHugh. McHugh saw SRS as unnecessary mutilation, and set out to kill the program. He assigned Dr. John Meyer to do a long-term follow-up study of 50 transsexuals who underwent SRS at Johns Hopkins. Meyer’s report, issued in 1977, claimed that SRS confers no objective advantage in terms of social rehabilitation for transsexuals. Although the paper was widely criticized for methodological flaws, while other studies have shown that Meyer’s study was incorrect in its conclusions. it led to the October 1979 closing of the Johns Hopkins Gender Identity Clinic.”

Quoting from another source: “Sex- reassignment surgery has proven to be the only successful treatment for these patients, and yet for some reason he ( McHugh ) wishes to deny this. He makes a rather clumsy attempt to justify his position by comparing the treatment of adults who are transsexual with the treatment of children who are intersexed. Ironically, the arguments for one contradict the arguments for the other. Children who are intersexed have traditionally been surgically altered in whatever manner is simplest. This has often resulted in a child who has a male brain being given a female body. As Dr. McHugh points out, such a child is tormented by the attempt to force him to live at odds with his natural inclinations. And yet, he cannot find the compassion to provide treatment to those who, for whatever reason, were born male but whose brains were not sexualized as male in the womb. Even though both groups face the same set of problems, Dr. McHugh sets out to protect one group while effectively punishing the other.”

One only has to do a bit of research to see that Dr. McHugh has continues to disregard and discredit all recent studies in support of “true” transexuality as being a “congenital intersexual condition”!!?? One has to ask, “Why??”.

Bottom line, being transexual and having SRS in not a sin, nor is immoral. Up to 50% of trans teenagers, up to age 20, attempt suicide. Way too many succeed.
Why so many?? It’s not because they are at odds with their desires, it’s because society does not accept them. It makes fun of them. Ridicules, and humiliates them.
Does anyone relate to being “different” when in school??

After surgery, the suicide rate drops to below national average.
Why?? Because they can now blend in and be who they should have been to begin with.

Now when you see words like “feel” and “desire”, they do not really describe the emotions that a transexual experiences. What they and “I” experience/experienced, is a drive that can’t be denied. A voice that can’t be quieted, that has to be answered, or else.
People say that we have a choice! Yes we do!

I chose to live!!
 
As a phenomenon, the Church should always denounce the concept of sex change operations to satisfy the disordered promptings within any given individual. .
And why is that?? Obviously your biased opinion.
It’s amazing how guys get all bent out of shape when they picture a guy ( in body ) having “his” genitals removed. :eek:

Unfortunately the term “transexual” has been linked to behaviors that span a broad spectrum, all of which have no connection to “true transexuality”.
Please bear with me. ( In a nutshell )
CROSS DRESSERS. Some people ( men ) find it relaxes them, others get sexual excitement out of it.
BTW, cross dressing is not a sin. Do your homework. What Deuteronomy22:5 refers to is probaly the practice of men and women, wearing clothes of the opposite sex, as part of a pagan religious practice.
( Have you all noticed that it’s a sin for a man to wear women’s clothing but it’s OK for a woman to wear men’s clothing!!??)
TRANSVESTITES. Men in drag for sex.
DRAG QUEENS. Entertainers the majority being gay.
SEX WORKERS. Men who get a modified or complete SRS for the sole purpose of making money in the sex industry.

SEX, SEX, SEX, …!!!

The “true transexual”. ( We really do have to come up with a new label ) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX. IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH WHO WE ARE.
How or why this happened to me or any of us in this situation, I have no idea!!??
It is being studied. Hopefully, some day they may find the root cause and maybe even be able to come up with a “cure”!!
 
And why is that?? Obviously your biased opinion.
It’s amazing how guys get all bent out of shape when they picture a guy ( in body ) having “his” genitals removed. :eek:

Unfortunately the term “transexual” has been linked to behaviors that span a broad spectrum, all of which have no connection to “true transexuality”.
Please bear with me. ( In a nutshell )
CROSS DRESSERS. Some people ( men ) find it relaxes them, others get sexual excitement out of it.
BTW, cross dressing is not a sin. Do your homework. What Deuteronomy22:5 refers to is probaly the practice of men and women, wearing clothes of the opposite sex, as part of a pagan religious practice.
( Have you all noticed that it’s a sin for a man to wear women’s clothing but it’s OK for a woman to wear men’s clothing!!??)
TRANSVESTITES. Men in drag for sex.
DRAG QUEENS. Entertainers the majority being gay.
SEX WORKERS. Men who get a modified or complete SRS for the sole purpose of making money in the sex industry.

SEX, SEX, SEX, …!!!

The “true transexual”. ( We really do have to come up with a new label ) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX. IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH WHO WE ARE.
How or why this happened to me or any of us in this situation, I have no idea!!??
It is being studied. Hopefully, some day they may find the root cause and maybe even be able to come up with a “cure”!!
And far too many say I shoud deny my true nature. I never fit in in school. I never had more than 2 irends at a time, and that was a rarit. Most of the time I had a friend. I never fit im. Many boys hated me because I didn’t like to rough and tumble or like to fight. Yes in my envirment growing up fighting was definitely something boys loved to do. I hated it. So I pretneded to be somewhat normal in order to get out of the special ed for emotionally impaired childeren I was in. as an adelescent, a teen and you adult I tried preneding to be a male, larter on a man. Over time my awkwardness and depression grew, now I have been diagnosed with disthymia which is a constant never going away depression. Some here say I should never transition or have corrective surgury, that guarentees more dperession and functionality going down hill Just think of howmuch I could be a contributer to society if I could just be myself. But to the oldfashioned minded it only matters that I stay male. Well poverty is forcing me to do thjat for the time being is making me be for the most part what that backwards minded want. The end result a despressed human being being of no help to society at large. Happy!!??!🤷
 
I dont know what to think after reading all of this stuff. To me now it is nothing but mass confusion which may be the reason the Church is silent on it.

We will probably never know the truth untill we die since it is so complex.and the medical field does not seem to able to find an answer.

All I know is what the Churches teaching is on Faith and Morals.

Antrim
 
I dont know what to think after reading all of this stuff. To me now it is nothing but mass confusion which may be the reason the Church is silent on it.

We will probably never know the truth untill we die since it is so complex.and the medical field does not seem to able to find an answer.

All I know is what the Churches teaching is on Faith and Morals.

Antrim
Read up on it use the scienfic approach to forming an opinion. Humans are complicated being, which is one of the many things that separates us from animals. We are complicated by God’s design. Simplicity is for anumals. What alot of Catholics need to do is get out of the old blue collar ( I know nothing other than my job) mode and start thinking for themselves. I also sense an uderlying males are more valuable than females attitude amungst some here also. Use your brain, tat what God put it in humans for.
 
I dont know what to think after reading all of this stuff. To me now it is nothing but mass confusion which may be the reason the Church is silent on it.

We will probably never know the truth untill we die since it is so complex.and the medical field does not seem to able to find an answer.

All I know is what the Churches teaching is on Faith and Morals.

Antrim
Antrim are you blind?? Read my post. The church is not “SILENT”. They released a document 6 years ago.
What is your issue?? Is not a document from the Vatican sufficient for you?? Or is it that your bias is such that nothing other than an outrite condemnation will satisfy you??
Please, I would like to know what it is that you find confusing!? Is it facts vs biased opinions that confuses you??
The Vatican said that in extreem circumstances, sex reasignment surgery can be morally acceptable.
Would you not consider a case where a person is contemplating suicide, and extreem circumstance??
 
No I am not biased at all.
This is the first that I heard that the church said anything about it at all and other people do not know either as they have posted on here saying they thought the church is still silent ot it
Why cant the scientific world and the medical world together come up with a cause? and if they have why is there no cure other than surgery?
I have no trouble with the churches standing on this. If it was not morally right they would not O K it
It would be up to the church after knowing the Doctors medical opinion wheather a patient was an extreme case depending what was in the medical report.
I would not want to have to make that call based on moral grounds.
Why was it a secret report at the time?

Antrim
 
I tried to stay neutral on this subject after I read some of the stuff on it from other people.
I worked with a person who had the surgery.
Based on what that person said after the surgery I felt I had a moral oblagation to speak on Faith and Morals on this subject.
Some people seemed to take it personally. Some people took my side and said there was no malice and they were right .
Thank You
When the Priest gives his Homily on a Sunday at Mass he is talking to the whole congragation not any one in particular.
I dont know anyone on here or what they do.
We Catholics have a moral oblagation to save Souls and whatever we need to do we do it.

Antrim
 
I tried to stay neutral on this subject after I read some of the stuff on it from other people.
I worked with a person who had the surgery.
Based on what that person said after the surgery I felt I had a moral oblagation to speak on Faith and Morals on this subject.
Some people seemed to take it personally. Some people took my side and said there was no malice and they were right .
Thank You
When the Priest gives his Homily on a Sunday at Mass he is talking to the whole congragation not any one in particular.
I dont know anyone on here or what they do.
We Catholics have a moral oblagation to save Souls and whatever we need to do we do it.

Antrim
Faith and good works are what gets one to Heaven. I can do alot more of the good works if I’m being myself then trying to pretend to be someone that society thinks I should be.
 
No I am not biased at all.
This is the first that I heard that the church said anything about it at all and other people do not know either as they have posted on here saying they thought the church is still silent ot it
Why cant the scientific world and the medical world together come up with a cause? and if they have why is there no cure other than surgery?
I have no trouble with the churches standing on this. If it was not morally right they would not O K it
It would be up to the church after knowing the Doctors medical opinion wheather a patient was an extreme case depending what was in the medical report.
I would not want to have to make that call based on moral grounds.
Why was it a secret report at the time?

Antrim
Antrim, Sorry if I come across a bit heavy at times. However, it seemed that you were not really reading what was being posted.

As for the medical and scientific community finding a cause for TS, they are working on it.
We are a very small minority, so I imagine that funding is at a premium. So far, indications are that it is an intersexed condition occuring in the womb, affecting our brains.
When it comes to the brain, science is still discovering new things on a daily basis. Who knows, maybe my mom had an alcoholic drink while she was pregnant with me and instead of a physical abnormality, this was the result!!?? Maybe in time they will have a definitive answer. For now, the one thing that has been the most effective, is to allow us to change what we can so that our minds and body are in sync.
As to why the Vatican sent out a document on this, in secret, that’s any ones guess. Keep in mind that this document was primarily in response to a priest having had SRS. The document was sent to all the bishops. I imagine it was to make sure that a F2M did not try to become a priest and that a M2F did not try to become a nun. My opinion is that they probably feared the F2M the most. Imagine a person born as a woman, becoming a priest.:eek:
That would also explain why they came out with “point #2” in my post re:the document.
It states that “recent” studies indicate that SRS makes things worse for us. There is absolutely no truth to that. The Vatican based it’s comments on (name removed by moderator)ut from Paul McHugh, a homophobe who has twisted data to suit his agenda.

Antrim, please keep in mind that this is the same church that tried to sweep the fact that we had pedophile priests ( and nuns ) under the rug. And I’m speaking from experience from when I was an altar boy.
One of the reasons I’m still practicing my catholic faith is that I finally came to the realization that priests and nuns are people. They have the same temptations and issues that the rest of us have, in large part. As a child I had them on a pedestle. My mother’s only sibling, her sister, was a nun. I loved her dearly and she was a holy person.
I also realized that not all Catholics are Christian!!:nope:
Then I started to think of what Jesus’ message was. “Love they neighbor as thyself”.
That’s what I try to do.
One of the Saints said: Preach the gospel and if you must, use words.
 
It is my opinion that regardless of what you call yourself, you are what God created you to be. God created me as a female and no matter how much I want to be a male or how much I say I am a male, I am still a female. It doesn’t matter if I get a sex change done, I’m still a female. Note that this is just a hypothetical. I am not a transsexual.
 
I tried to stay neutral on this subject after I read some of the stuff on it from other people.
I worked with a person who had the surgery.
Based on what that person said after the surgery I felt I had a moral oblagation to speak on Faith and Morals on this subject.
Some people seemed to take it personally. Some people took my side and said there was no malice and they were right .
Thank You
When the Priest gives his Homily on a Sunday at Mass he is talking to the whole congragation not any one in particular.
I dont know anyone on here or what they do.
We Catholics have a moral oblagation to save Souls and whatever we need to do we do it.

Antrim
Antrim, I don’t agree that “We Catholics have a moral obligation to save Souls”. Jesus did that!! It is our moral obligation to save our own souls. In doing that, living a life that will result in the salvation of our souls, we influence others to turn to GOD, resulting in them saving their souls. You will not “save” anyone by condeming them. Jesus never condemned when it came to personal behavior. However, He did get a little bent out of shape with the merchants in the temple. He was also very strong about people that mistreated a child or those who led others to sin. ( Adam & Eve!! )
Lets not forget that when we point our finger at someone, that we have 3 others pointing back at us:o

Again I believe it comes down to; Preach the bible and if you must, use words.
 
It is my opinion that regardless of what you call yourself, you are what God created you to be. God created me as a female and no matter how much I want to be a male or how much I say I am a male, I am still a female. It doesn’t matter if I get a sex change done, I’m still a female. Note that this is just a hypothetical. I am not a transsexual.
Holly,
GOD created “man”. HE did that once. Adam and Eve were perfect… until they sinned. Since then, the human race has continued to exist and grow through procreation and we’ve had defects and sicknes etc…
I’m sure that nothing said, even from the Vatican, would change you opinion.🤷

I’ll bet that you also strongly believe that AIDS is GOD’s way of punishing gay people!?

God bless.
 
When the Priest tells us off the Alter on a Sunday Morning that we have to save Souls we had better listen.
Yes we must save our own Souls but we must save other Souls as well. When we see someone sin we must try and stop them.
There are a lot of Souls in Hell because they chose to disagree with the Church and not do what the Church was teaching.
When I remind people what is forbidden by the Sixth and Nineth Commandments I am not condeming or pointing Fingers.
I am doing my job.

Antrim
 
When the Priest tells us off the Alter on a Sunday Morning that we have to save Souls we had better listen.
Yes we must save our own Souls but we must save other Souls as well. When we see someone sin we must try and stop them.
There are a lot of Souls in Hell because they chose to disagree with the Church and not do what the Church was teaching.
When I remind people what is forbidden by the Sixth and Nineth Commandments I am not condeming or pointing Fingers.
I am doing my job.

Antrim
you talk about souls in hell for disagreeing with the church. In the hypothetical sense of the word. Does that mean Galeleo lost his soul?
 
It is my opinion that regardless of what you call yourself, you are what God created you to be.
yes god created me to be a female but unfortunately nature got mistaken and gave me a male body.thanks to surgery i have been able to get my body back to as close as i can to what god creeated me to be
 
Gosh I wish I was around when these threads start. I seem to come along at the end and people are tired of the discussion. However, I don’t see this entire discussion as a dead horse. I see a lot of opinionated comments. Some that I would relegate to Jewish mentality BC and still held by many of them, as well as many Christians. No disrespect meant but before Christ, the Jewish people felt that bad things occured to people because either they did something wrong or their parents did. Christ tried to dispell that thinking without much success.
As someone else pointed out, GOD does not make mistakes. How could HE, HE is GOD. Now please consult an expert on Christion doctrine before commenting to this post. This is what I picked up over the years, from talking to ( if not experts ) very learned teachers of the Catholic faith.
When Adam and Eve sinned, that sin seperated us from GOD’s will. It broke that perfect bond that they enjoyed. Being cast out of the Garden of Eden, brought sickness, abnormalities and death. All the **** that we deal with on a daily basis. This is NOT GOD’s will. We, the human race ( A & E ), rejected GOD’s will and are suffering the consequences. Our GOD is a “loving GOD”. He wanted and wants the best for us.
However, **stuff happens ** and HE allows that. Earthquakes happen. Hurricanes happen. Birth defects happen… He does not interfere in human affares. He gave us free will.
Will HE judge us on how we deal with the things that “happen”?? I have no doubt. Do I fear how HE will judge me??
I hope that HE will have pity on my soul.
However, I have no doubt that my SRS was warranted and that HE will accept me as I now am.
There’s such a thing as God’s highest Will, being that we passed the Garden, and also what you would call a lower Will, whereas He wills all that has happened after the Fall. His Will doesn’t stop because it’s not what it was originally, but it modifies you might say by the Fall. So it’s true His purest Will was a higher wish, but once we descended from that no longer being possible, then the highest Will shifts with it. Just like if one of us were sinless, but then sinned, His Will can no longer be that we reamain sinless, because we are not. His Will, in simple terms, would be that we remain with only the one sin committed (and of course repented). Nothing happens by accident, as it’s ALL God’s Will and ALL goes through His Hands. Just as Job went through his mess. God allowed the devil a higher latittude with Job than He does with many of us, so it was no accident that what happened to Job did, because God permits all that happens. His higher Will might be that He wishes He did not have to expose Job to that, but as Job is a Biblical story, the portion of his life described takes on a much vaster meaning than just some guy really keen on God that went through a lot, and so the glory to God has been magnified even more so.

As God controls all, there is nothing insignificant or accidental to anything that happens; and no such thing as luck. Everything that happens, passes through His Hands, and like Job, we have to be confident in His Goodness. I’m saying this as my Dad just got diagnosed with stage4 cancer which doesn’t have a cure. The pre-Fall Will of God for us all, probably wouldn’t have had a purpose for death at all, but post-Fall my Dad’s seeming imminent death is every bit a part of the post-Fall Will as any other portion of it. Perhaps if you don’t realize this truth, perhaps rather crudely stated, you would find Self- Abandonment to Divine Providence quite revealing.

God can let the devil pretty much have an open hand on somebody, or He can curtail the devbil deeply. I find that my God is so powerful and thoughtful, that He not only doesn’t have a system running to automatically process decisions or events, but has His Hand on every bit of it, even if you would say that giving the devil something of an open hand with Job wasn’t being into minutia. One can make a broad decision and every single micron of it’s effects to the whole world can be “known” by God, and always is known by God. I mean God knew the devil would do exactly what he did do to Job, so it wasn’t like there was any random factor involved. The devil had free will to do all but kill Job, but when you always know exactly what somebody will do, that allowance isn’t as great as it seemed. Presumably God would had let the devil do all sorts of other things in addition to what the devil did (short of Job’s death), but the devil stopped somewhere, and the Lord knew exactly where that stopping would be. If there had been one more misfortune happening to Job, then perhaps the Father wouldn’t had allowed the devil the almost free hand? Perhaps if the Father had allowed only one more act by the devil against Job, that act would had been Job’s death? Not that God wouldnt’ know this, but perhaps the devil got bored with not being alowed to kill Job, and therefore grew tired and stopped afllicting him when he did? Surely, the devil had to realize at some point that the more he afllicted Job, and the more Job stayed faitful, the bigger fool the devil made of himself and also Job glorified God more.

There is no such thing as luck or accidents as far as God is concerned. He doesn’t have limited powers that can only monitor only so many things at one time, and even if it were true, His ability to already know what will happen with every thing He allows, renders the possibility that He couldn’t monitor everything at once relatively irrelevant.

I’m not terribly sure you would disagree with what I just wrote, as my re-reading your post makes me re-think, however, as it’s an expansion of thought if nothing else, I will leave it up as-is.
 
There’s such a thing as God’s highest Will, being that we passed the Garden, and also what you would call a lower Will, whereas He wills all that has happened after the Fall. His Will doesn’t stop because it’s not what it was originally, but it modifies you might say by the Fall. So it’s true His purest Will was a higher wish, but once we descended from that no longer being possible, then the highest Will shifts with it. Just like if one of us were sinless, but then sinned, His Will can no longer be that we reamain sinless, because we are not. His Will, in simple terms, would be that we remain with only the one sin committed (and of course repented). Nothing happens by accident, as it’s ALL God’s Will and ALL goes through His Hands. Just as Job went through his mess. God allowed the devil a higher latittude with Job than He does with many of us, so it was no accident that what happened to Job did, because God permits all that happens. His higher Will might be that He wishes He did not have to expose Job to that, but as Job is a Biblical story, the portion of his life described takes on a much vaster meaning than just some guy really keen on God that went through a lot, and so the glory to God has been magnified even more so.

As God controls all, there is nothing insignificant or accidental to anything that happens; and no such thing as luck. Everything that happens, passes through His Hands, and like Job, we have to be confident in His Goodness. I’m saying this as my Dad just got diagnosed with stage4 cancer which doesn’t have a cure. The pre-Fall Will of God for us all, probably wouldn’t have had a purpose for death at all, but post-Fall my Dad’s seeming imminent death is every bit a part of the post-Fall Will as any other portion of it. Perhaps if you don’t realize this truth, perhaps rather crudely stated, you would find Self- Abandonment to Divine Providence quite revealing.

God can let the devil pretty much have an open hand on somebody, or He can curtail the devbil deeply. I find that my God is so powerful and thoughtful, that He not only doesn’t have a system running to automatically process decisions or events, but has His Hand on every bit of it, even if you would say that giving the devil something of an open hand with Job wasn’t being into minutia. One can make a broad decision and every single micron of it’s effects to the whole world can be “known” by God, and always is known by God. I mean God knew the devil would do exactly what he did do to Job, so it wasn’t like there was any random factor involved. The devil had free will to do all but kill Job, but when you always know exactly what somebody will do, that allowance isn’t as great as it seemed. Presumably God would had let the devil do all sorts of other things in addition to what the devil did (short of Job’s death), but the devil stopped somewhere, and the Lord knew exactly where that stopping would be. If there had been one more misfortune happening to Job, then perhaps the Father wouldn’t had allowed the devil the almost free hand? Perhaps if the Father had allowed only one more act by the devil against Job, that act would had been Job’s death? Not that God wouldnt’ know this, but perhaps the devil got bored with not being alowed to kill Job, and therefore grew tired and stopped afllicting him when he did? Surely, the devil had to realize at some point that the more he afllicted Job, and the more Job stayed faitful, the bigger fool the devil made of himself and also Job glorified God more.

There is no such thing as luck or accidents as far as God is concerned. He doesn’t have limited powers that can only monitor only so many things at one time, and even if it were true, His ability to already know what will happen with every thing He allows, renders the possibility that He couldn’t monitor everything at once relatively irrelevant.
So what does this have to do with this thread?
 
So what does this have to do with this thread?
It was directed at his comments I posted, elsewise why would I quote it? The only thing is, I thought for some reason he was trying to almost say that God’s Will after the Fall didn’t exist or modify after the Fall, and I was attempting to clear that up. I thought he was going quite a bit opposite of the flow, that he now appears he was really taking IOW.
 
Down to brass tacks. God causes somethings to happen and God allows somethings to happen. So what? Everyone knows that. When bad things happen we are allowed to do what we can do to rectify the situation.
 
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