Girls as alter servers

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However, to jump from that statement to the conclusion that altar girls are to be discouraged is faulty logic. And to then support that faulty logic by modifying the Vatican’s words to include an extra “only” is following one’s own agenda as the spirit of Redemptionis Sacramentum.
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How is that “faulty logic”? I didn’t say altar girls are to be discouraged, I would just not allow them and that would be well within my perogative. I do not question Rome, they allow the option of altar girls and I assent. I do not get all up in arms if I see girls serving as that is an option left to the discretion of the Ordinary to allow in his diocese and the Pastor in his parish.

However, the Vatican definately encourages altar boys and seems to allow for altar girls in case of necessity or for other reasons at the discretion of the bishop. That is not the same thing. The quote from EWTN says “to retain as far as possible the custom of only boys…” TO RETAIN AS FAR AS POSSIBLE the custom of only boys. Do you deny that it has been the custom to only allow boys to serve? I should hope not.

It seems stepping far off from tradition would be an illogical way to read into any statement from the Vatican-again, I lay the charge of misinterpretation at your door.
Your right, that is not conclusive. Are you in the Lincoln diocese? If so, how are girl alter-servers a problem when you don’t have them?
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I don’t presume to speak for AltarMan, but I will again address the issue as I see it.

I think some people see the issue as one of practicallity, and it is not, or at least that is not the big deal. How many Sunday Novus Ordo Masses have you gone to that use the whole big entourage of altar boys like they use in most Tridentine High Masses? I know I don’t see many, if any at all.

It is a matter of psychology, again I say it. You people don’t realize how allowing girls to serve really takes away from the boys’ desire to keep serving. Call it sexist, call it dumb, but that is just the way most preteen boys work.

cont…
 
cont…

Just to be clear, the two Dioceses that do not allow female altar servers are the Diocese of Lincoln and the Diocese of Arlington.

I found an interesting article on the net that I’m going to quote out of and post the link so you all can read it for yourselves.

You can read the whole thing here-
totustuus.com/girlservers.htm
The practice has been condemned consistently, through nearly 2000 years of Christian history. In the Vatican journal Notitiæ Aimé-Georges Martimort traces the general discipline of the Church against females serving at the altar to canon 44 of the Collection of Laodicea, which dates back to the end of the 4th century. This discipline has been found in almost all canonical collections of East and West.
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Martimort points out that popes ever since St. Gelasius in 494 had condemned the practice, and Pope St. Gelasius was obliged to write to bishops of regions in which it was attempted: “We have heard with sorrow of the great contempt with which the sacred mysteries have been treated. It has reached the point where women have been encouraged to serve at the altar, and to carry out roles that are not suited to their sex, having been assigned exclusively to those of masculine gender.”
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Seems like the constant custom of the Church has been to not allow female altar servers. Of course, this is a discipline, I’m not saying that Rome is in heresy so no one try to put those words in my mouth!
I recently contacted the Diocese of Lincoln to look for some numerical data. I soon ended up on the phone with Fr. Jeffrey Eickhoff, Professor of Philosophy at the newly constructed St. Gregory the Great seminary in the Diocese of Lincoln. According to Fr. Eickhoff, last fall there were nine seminarians admitted from within the Diocese, and a total of about 29 including seminarians from other dioceses. I asked Fr. Eickhoff whether he considered that there was a relationship between declining vocations and Girl Altar Boys. He responded, “Yes. That’s not the only thing that is causing a loss of vocations, but it is certainly one of them.”
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He went on to explain what he called a two-stage process:
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At an early age, the use of Girl Altar Boys keeps away the boys who come to see service at the altar as a girl activity.
Once they grow older, the boys are uncomfortable participating in the liturgy in any way, since they have not done so from an early age.
He went on to discuss the church he grew up in and where he served as an altar boy. He credited this experience with having contributed to his own vocation. Recently he was informed that at this same church, a relatively large church that is not in the Diocese of Lincoln has 50 “altar servers,” and only three of them are boys.
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Amen. That is exactly what I thought. Psychologically, it is true (of course, don’t ask any EDIT radical feminist psychologists about it…) and the traditional practice bears fruit-along with keeping everything else orthodox.
 
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I then contacted the other diocese that hadn’t buckled under political pressure. The Diocese of Arlington, Va., issued a memorandum in late 1994 signed by the Chancellor. The memorandum stated that the tradition of boys only serving on the altar would remain unchanged throughout the diocese, but did provide for a few exceptions. To this date the exceptions have not become the norm.
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The memorandum explained: “One of the top priorities of the Diocese of Arlington is to identify and nurture potential vocations to the priesthood, and it is a special gift of God that our corps of diocesan priests has grown over 50% in the past decade.
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“One of the best expressions - and reinforcements - of an early inclination to the priesthood is often found in a young boy’s voluntary offer to assist the priest at the altar, where the possibility of a role model scenario is clearly present. Perhaps that might explain why over 85% of our priests formerly were altar servers.”
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I contacted the vocations office to try to find out how many seminarians had been admitted in Fall 2002, and the vocations office would not release the information. However, according to an April 12, 2001 article in the diocesan newspaper there were 34 men in priestly formation at that time. According to a December 25, 2001 article11 in the same paper there were 41, which means that 11 were added between April and December 2001, probably in September.
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Isn’t the Diocese of Arlington another diocese noted for its adherence to orthodoxy and intolerance of heterodoxy?
I then contacted other unnamed dioceses in which Girl Altar Boys have become virtually universal. In those cases in which they would actually respond to my question, there were either zero new seminarians or only one last September.
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I brought the issue up in a meeting with a group of Catholic men recently, and one gentleman asked, “Won’t the use of both girl and boy altar servers inspire girls to become nuns and boys to become priests?” My response was, “When was the last time you even saw a nun?” He couldn’t remember.
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“When was the last time you ever saw a nun?”-ain’t that the truth! 😦
On the other hand, we can see that there is no shortage of young men interested in the Legionnaires of Christ, nor is there a shortage with the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP) and the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest. None of the above engages in feminist liturgy, and the latter two follow the 1962 Latin rite. The FSSP had 118 applications for less than 20 positions to begin at their seminary September 2003. That’s just within the North American District.
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I can vouch for that. The local FSSP chapel doesn’t have a shortage of altar servers for Mass. Seems like every boy that attends there is an altar server-even up until they get into their teens.

You can read the whole thing here-
totustuus.com/girlservers.htm
 
George Waters:
Your right, that is not conclusive. Are you in the Lincoln diocese? If so, how are girl alter-servers a problem when you don’t have them?

What do I need to offer evidence of? You are the one that claims having girls as alter-servers is detrimental. I have simply asked you to offer evidence of your claim, which you have continued to ignore!

You have no evidence and you know it so you keep regurgitating your personal conjecture than accuse others of doing just that while demanding evidence when the burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders.
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Pot/kettle/black.

I’ll let ComradeAndrei’s sublime response speak for itself…
 
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ComradeAndrei:
The quote from EWTN says “to retain as far as possible the custom of only boys…” TO RETAIN AS FAR AS POSSIBLE the custom of only boys.
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Again, this EWTN statement is very different from anything that the Vatican has ever said. Hence, the misinterpretation.
 
My two BIL’s were altar-servers in a church in North-London, that was very traditional and to this day doesn’t have female altar-servers (my in-laws still go there, and the current priest is a family-friend), they stayed on until they left home (at 19 and 23 respectively) because there were so few young boys wanting to become altar-servers. At one point Adrian served at 6 H.Masses at the weekend, he had lunch and dinner with the priests! It was also a massive parish, with 2 Catholic primary schools to draw from…yet the boys preferred to play soccer, go to piano-lessons or do home-work than become an altar-server…Dh and I went there recently and asked Fr.Dominic and he said it hasn’t changed much since the 1970s and early 80s: boys still can’t be coaxed or forced to serve, they prefer to play with their X-Box or PlaystationII now…They still don’t have female altar-servers, but it doesn’t change the fact that religion just doesn’t feature hugely in a young boys life. Dh and Dominic were the only vocations from that church in the last 30 years, and only Dominic went on to be ordained (dh decided after 4 years not to continue at seminary). None of the boys who WERE altar-servers went on to study for the priesthood, as neither dh nor Dominic were ever altar-servers…I think the whole situation of gaining vocations to the priesthood is far more complex than whether or not we reserve the altar-servers position purely for boys.

By the way, our sacristan is Sr.Michelle, very much a female…

Anna x
 
I realize that this is not a doctrinal issue as such, but I must admit that I’m a little disappointed in the response given by the Vatican regarding girls at the altar.Yes the debate shouldn’t be couched in political terms, nor should it couched in terms of socializing boys and girls differently either. Having girls at the altar of sacrifice is sharp break from the Biblical priesthood and as such, the presence of girls at the altar alters the holiness, the sacredness, and the sublimeness of what is transpiring at the altar. Am I denigrating girls? Not at all. But if the Mass is the re-presentation of Calvary/Last Supper, then it should be re-presented accurately. It was to 12 men that Christ instituted the priesthood, and it is the priest/male that is Alter Christus (sp). So to have women on the altar subtly changes the re-presentation, and in so doing alters the full import of the re-presentation. The Old Testament sacrifices were always attended to by males. Why should the New Testament sacrifice be different. Breaking the manner of attending to the altar of sacrifice, in my opinion, leads to a shift in perception and, consequently, a shift in our approach to the altar. If we stop and think about it for a minute, notice how we act when we are witness to an all-male altar, with the altar boys in cossack and surplice and the priest properly dressed and the actions of the priest and the altar boys in accord with the ancient rituals. We as the congregation then tend to be more reverent because we have more of a sense of the sacrifice of the altar. With girls at the altar, the sacrificial aspect of the Mass becomes a little more muffled. A little more casualness creeps in, whether intended or not, because the girls are innately not part of the re-presentation. I wish that we would reference or locate this discussion in terms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and what it is intended to do. If we did that, looking at the continuity of the Mass and its origins in the Old Testament, we would see that the altar should be populated by men and boys. Girls and the altar with the alb look like priestesses. Female Extradordinary Ministers of the Eucharist on the altar strip the altar of is sacrificial aspect and lend an air of busyness and clamor. The altar in which Christ re-presents himself to us is the most holy representation of the Incarnation. We should re-present it accurately, especially in this time and age when the world is rapidly losing any sense of holiness, sacredness,and sublimity. To witness the priest standing in for Christ surrounding by those who look like him on the altar of sacrifice is awe inspiring and brings us closer to God. Having girls on the altar of sacrifice does not, simply because they’re presence does not enable the full impact of the sacrifice to resonate within us.
 
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AltarMan:
Pot/kettle/black.

I’ll let ComradeAndrei’s sublime response speak for itself…
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No Sir, that is not the pot calling the kettle black!

YOU made the claim now YOU need to offer evidence. It is as simple as that. I have repeatedly ask you for your evidence and you have repeatedly failed to present evidence.

You can let others speak for you if you wish, which may be a good idea in this case as you have not answered a single question I have addressed to you and have offered no evidence to support your claim.
 
+JMJ+

I think what he is trying to say is that is has already been said.Why go into it futher.Let’s try not to get so touchy,remeber we are all catholics here. 🙂 😃 😛 :cool: 👍 😉
 
I thought I’d share this quote with everyone.

Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum said, “It is also true that groups of boy servers have fostered vocations to the priesthood. But to be fair, this usually happens within a broader culture of openness to a vocation in which other elements come into play, such as the example and spiritual guidance given by good priests, and family support.”


As far as the last time I saw a nun we average three Sisters at our 10:00 AM Sunday Mass. 😃

Have a great Friday! 👍
 
post # 107 probably wins the prize for the most common sense, the most direct, and the most on topic.

Thanks
 
Cecelia,

“…the presence of girls at the altar alters the holiness, the sacredness, and the sublimeness of what is transpiring at the altar…”

With all due respect that may be the case for you, but honestly there is no proof that having girls at the alter alters the holiness. If he did do you honestly believe Pope John Paul II would have allowed girls to serve at the alter? As a further example, if a presiding priest is in a state of mortal sin and offers communion it does not invalidate or alter the holiness of the sacrifice for us receiving the Lord.

Everyone,

As far as tradition, we should all remember there was a time that the laity did not even witness parts of the Mass and as was pointed out earlier when only deacons could assist the priest at the alter. Do we wish to go back and honor those long-held traditions? Just because something is not how it was done when we grew up does not mean it is an abuse or wrong. There have been numerous changes over the years that have upset earlier traditions.

As Catholics we should be proud and mindful of our traditions, but we must always remember that traditions are man-made and not equal to the laws and love of God.
 
George Waters:
No Sir, that is not the pot calling the kettle black!

YOU made the claim now YOU need to offer evidence. It is as simple as that. I have repeatedly ask you for your evidence and you have repeatedly failed to present evidence.

You can let others speak for you if you wish, which may be a good idea in this case as you have not answered a single question I have addressed to you and have offered no evidence to support your claim.
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You need to be less emotional about this thread. There is absolutely no question that serving at the altar fosters vocations to the priesthood and diaconate. None.

That obvious truth clearly upsets you. Why, I have no idea --EDIT perhaps because you feel it could ultimately impact feminism/sexism within the Church. Either way I’m not going to back-off from an obvious truth because I don’t have statistical proof.

One more time: altar fosters vocations to the priesthood and diaconate. Done.
 
The use of altar girls (outside of a convent or a woman’s prison) isn’t justifiable. It’s legal, but that certainly dosen’t make it right.

Particularly when permission to use female altar servers was given as a response to terrible abuses within the Church.
 
As I said before, fostering vocations to the priesthood is a far more complex situation than ‘Have only lots of male altar servers and then you will get lots of vocations’. Not in this day and age, unfortunately…I wish it was that simple! But young men have so many career-options open to them, and there are so many ways to spend their spare-time…very often becoming an altar-server is very low on the list, and when they get to 16 or 17 the secular world makes such an impact on them, that very few even consider the priesthood, no matter how devoutly Catholic they were raised. Our Clifton Diocese survives on virtually only ‘late vocations’: men in their 40s or 50s who decide to train for the priesthood…

Anna x
 
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AltarMan:
One more time: altar fosters vocations to the priesthood and diaconate. Done.
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Oh really…that’s why in the history of my parish there has only been ONE vocation in the past 75 years! And, that’s why both of my sons, who are devout practicing Catholics, who served at the Altar till they were both 16 were not the LEAST bit interested in the priesthood.
 
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Annunciata:
Oh really…that’s why in the history of my parish there has only been ONE vocation in the past 75 years! And, that’s why both of my sons, who are devout practicing Catholics, who served at the Altar till they were both 16 were not the LEAST bit interested in the priesthood.
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Your sample size is too small.

It’s axiomatic that serving at the altar is one of the primacy ways to foster a priestly vocation in a male.

(BTW, there’s something wrong with your parish if you are telling the truth. In other words, you’ve got bigger problems…)
 
anna1978 said:
**As I said before, fostering vocations to the priesthood is a far more complex situation than ‘Have only lots of male altar servers and then you will get lots of vocations’. **Not in this day and age, unfortunately…I wish it was that simple! But young men have so many career-options open to them, and there are so many ways to spend their spare-time…very often becoming an altar-server is very low on the list, and when they get to 16 or 17 the secular world makes such an impact on them, that very few even consider the priesthood, no matter how devoutly Catholic they were raised. Our Clifton Diocese survives on virtually only ‘late vocations’: men in their 40s or 50s who decide to train for the priesthood…

Anna x
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Who here is suggesting it’s not?

Nevertheless, serving at the altar is a prime means to foster priestly/diaconate vocations no matter how you want to spin it.
 
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