Girls as alter servers

  • Thread starter Thread starter mrs_abbott
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
BlackKnight:
Y’know…your retort smacks of ad hominem.
Gosh doesn’t yours?

I point out again that the issue is dead because it has been decided by the Holy See and so all the whining about it is just nuisance noise while the rest of the faithful carry on with the work of the church.

T.
Are you saying that having altar girls is a dead issue? Does that mean you feel this is an infalible pronouncement?

I have been in my present parrish for over twenty years. The boys have disappeared from the altar. It is a reality. I know one little boy who wanted to do gymnastics but refused because there were only girls. It is a reality. I believe your remarks could use a little more charity or do I need to duck?
 
There are definitely advantages for the church to having altar girls, some may well be discerning whether or not they wish to volunteer for other liturgical roles as adults, as readers, usherettes or as EMHC’s.

I haven’t seen any stats on it, but my gut feeling is that many of the younger grown women involved in these ministries got their start serving at the altar.
 
Give it up BlackKnight! This is obviously a very emotional topic for some as a second thread was created just to talk about it. I was once told “pot/kettle/black” and I couldn’t agree more. I am afraid some people are only interested it stating and restating their opinions ad nauseum with no evidence to support what they claim to be fact and as you know things cannot be considered fact with out evidence.

I have decided to no longer comment on this subject for the time being as the repeated questioning of beliefs, motivations and morals of individuals with a differing viewpoint and the judgment of others clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of Catholic teachings and Christian charity.

God Bless!
 
40.png
AltarMan:
While altar girls are certainly (currently) allowed by the Church under most circumstances, their use is certainly not mandated, nor is it even recommended (as it certainly is with males.) I think the primary reasons for not allowing female altar servers is quite clear:
  • They fill-up slots that should be reserved for males who might just possibly be discerning a call to the priesthood or permanent diaconate. Because serving at the altar has historically been such an important means to foster such vocations, all altar server slots should be reserved for male.
They fill up slots? You have slots? They are very popular out here in the Indian casinos… Seriously, that’s just hot air. what they do is they show up and they serve. The boys aren’t being excluded as there is always room for more; it is just that more don’t come.

AltarMan said:
* The use of altar girls was approved as a response to gross abuse and dissent. That’s a horrible foundation for any change. Until the Holy See once again restricts altar serving to males, it makes sense not to perpetuate the rather sleazy basis for the current situation.

Hog wash. that is just the complaint used by anyone who doesn’t like a change that came from somewhere other than Rome. To begin with, you make Rome sound like some simpering bunch of fools who couldn’t enforce anything, and just roll over when someone else wants a change. Rome could have shut that down in a heart beat had they chosen to. Secondly, I don’t hear you complaining that the Sacrament of Reconcilliation no longer requires public confession to the whole Church (required by Rome, but due to “gross abuse and dissent” by Irish monks, changed) nor being restricted to only receiving the Sacrament one time in your life (again the rule of Rome, and again changed by “gross abuse and dissent” by those Irish monks).

AltarMan said:
* Females cannot serve in all the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Unity on this issue is important, and I hardly see the Easterners allowing female servers en masse.

Maybe you need to read the Vatican 2 document on the Eastern Churches again. You grossly abuse the term unity by suggesting that they and the Roman rite must look like one to have unity.

AltarMan said:
* It promotes false expectations and hopes. “If women can serve, why can’t they be priests…?”

Seems to me it was the Little Flower of Jesus who wrote of the almost painful longing and desire to be a priest. one of our prior altar girls has recently professed vows in a group of nums who are ture to the Magisterium. Didn’t seem to harm her any. Drew her closer to Christ. but then, is that what we really want…?

AltarMan said:
* It ruins a wonderful tradition that wasn’t hurting anything – except perhaps the egos of some sexist/feminists.

Ruins it? I haven’t seen anything ruined. Perhaps you could be more explicit?
 
40.png
AltarMan:
Your retort smacks strongly of what I will term “PCism” and “sexist/feminism.” In brief, it’s wrong, but it does cast a bit of light on something that I find very interesting here locally.

With the coming of a new Pope, a new bishop (here locally), and documents like RS, are those that are driven by PCism and sexism/feminsm beginning to feel the heat? I’m beginning to notice just a taste of desperation and I’m curious as to its genesis.
It is interesting that you speak of desperation. As soon as the news was out the Ratzinger was the new Pope, the arch convservatives starting wringing thier hands with joy, anticipating the tightening of rules, greater enforcement, “smack down” of those liberals and dissenters…
and the silence has been deafening. No “smack downs”. No particular rush to enforce anything. No new rules, or revocations of older rules.

A lot of talk about ecumenism. A lot of talk about what it means to be a Christian.

Not too many dissenters swung by their heals…
Desperation. No, I don’t think so…
 
40.png
AltarMan:
While altar girls are certainly (currently) allowed by the Church under most circumstances, their use is certainly not mandated, nor is it even recommended (as it certainly is with males.) I think the primary reasons for not allowing female altar servers is quite clear:
I believe the wording is “permitted,” no?
  • They fill-up slots that should be reserved for males who might just possibly be discerning a call to the priesthood or permanent diaconate. Because serving at the altar has historically been such an important means to foster such vocations, all altar server slots should be reserved for male.
Theoretically they infringe on spots that males would take. But that’s besides the point. The important part is not that males necesarrily, “want,” these spots, but that there should be a sense of responsibility given to males in that they are expected to serve. That sense of responsibility, even if it doesn’t lead to a vocation, is not a bad thing to foster.

I can’t say I agree with your logic there, though. It’s only a piece of fosterting vocations. Much more important for fostering vocations is thorough catechization, especially directed towards the Eucharist, for it is the Eucharist that makes a priest. Altar serving, as is, in our parishes without catechization, is not going to yield great amounts of vocations. Perhaps places with only altar boys have more vocations, but that is likely because they are more othodox and catechize their boys better. Likewise, I would wager that a parish that banned altar boys and only allowed altar girls, but had intense catechization for its boys, would have more vocations than a parish which merely had all altar boys out of necessity, but neglected to teach them properly. (Can you tell that I think catechization is very important? I tend to overstate it, so be kind on me with your response.)
  • The use of altar girls was approved as a response to gross abuse and dissent. That’s a horrible foundation for any change. Until the Holy See once again restricts altar serving to males, it makes sense not to perpetuate the rather sleazy basis for the current situation.
And yet, it was the Holy See that approved it as an option for bishops to exercise, wasn’t it? Maybe it isn’t the best reason to do so, but it’s no argument against the validity of female altar servers.
  • Females cannot serve in all the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Unity on this issue is important, and I hardly see the Easterners allowing female servers en masse.
Which is besides the point. Why is unity important on this issue? Rome has not forced the Eastern Catholic Churches to have altar girls, so the Orthodox shouldn’t be fearful of being forced to have altar girls, should they decide to submit to Peter. That the Latin Church uses altar girls has no bearing on this. That Rome hasn’t forced the Eastern Churches to have altar girls has everything to do with this. It is clear that Rome respect Eastern traditions here, and that is what matters.
  • It promotes false expectations and hopes. “If women can serve, why can’t they be priests…?”
Again, proper catechization would solve this problem. They would understand what exactly an ordained minister is and why women cannot be ordained as priests and deacons. If people were taught properly 95% of these problems wouldn’t exist.
  • It ruins a wonderful tradition that wasn’t hurting anything – except perhaps the egos of some sexist/feminists.
It certainly was not a bad tradition, but Rome has allowed it, so it isn’t intrinsically bad. I wouldn’t be disappointed if they removed the option for altar girls, but, to be honest, to talk about it as if it is the root of a problem is besides the point.

I think if you teach people correctly, things will fall into place. Yes, externals and a papable sense of the sacred do help, and I don’t deny it, in fact, I agree with it. And yes, I absolutely support adding things that increase the sense of sacredness in the Mass. However, we should start with the firm foundation of teaching Catholics what they believe, and then concern ourselves. When people know what they believe and why they should believe it, they’ll start doing things on their own, just like how the sincere Catholic who understands the Mass will fulfill his weekly obligation out of an ardent desire to be with Christ, and not merely on the pain of mortal sin. Oh well, I’m rambling. I appreciate your zeal, as always, AltarMan, but I think you’re coming at it from the wrong angle.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, it’s getting late, and I have a mass to serve tomorrow morning. 😉
 
AltarMan said:
* They fill-up slots that should be reserved for males who might just possibly be discerning a call to the priesthood or permanent diaconate. Because serving at the altar has historically been such an important means to foster such vocations, all altar server slots should be reserved for male…

again a misconception, the vocation you talk about starts at home and with the priests,not as servers as you would like to believe.
EVEN withthis type of thinking we can arrange it so it does the same for females,as the need for nuns is still huge also.

AltarMan said:
* The use of altar girls was approved as a response to gross abuse and dissent. That’s a horrible foundation for any change. Until the Holy See once again restricts altar serving to males, it makes sense not to perpetuate the rather sleazy basis for the current situation…

again you were asked at least 5 times that i read to prove this theory and you NEVER responded except with your sexist quotes never any single thread of proof.you really have a problem with females but i am unsure why

AltarMan said:
* * Females cannot serve in all the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Unity on this issue is important, and I hardly see the Easterners allowing female servers en masse…

BUT we are not those churches,

AltarMan said:
* * It promotes false expectations and hopes. “If women can serve, why can’t they be priests…?”…

because to many people like you are afraid of women in charge of anything

AltarMan said:
** It ruins a wonderful tradition that wasn’t hurting anything – except perhaps the egos of some sexist/feminists…

and now Because a “tradition” has changed it hurts your ego so its wrong in your shallow way of thinking.Face it women are here to stay and like it or not they going to serve.so get over it already going from thread to thread to try and get people to think like you wont change a thing
John
 
40.png
rwoehmke:
What you say about altar girls may be true, but then I have to look at many of our parishes and ask who carries the load on many parish councils and committees, who are our teachers in Catholic Schools, why does it seem that more women are attending Mass on both weekdays and Sundays, how many women work in our chancery offices and so on and so forth? We men may have the priesthood and the hierarchy, but it is by and large a female dominated Faith. So…I guess what would you expect under the circumstances? :confused: Oh yeah and even our choirs are predominately made up of females with a couple of males for tenor and bass.
So why don’t you talk to or mentor some boys? Maybe the reason boys don’t go for it is because no adult male ever suggested/encouraged it?

Just a thought fellas…
 
aurora77 said:
👍 I see the same thing in my parish. We do have a very dedicated Knights of Columbus group, but by and large, much is left to the women of the parish. Men need to buck up and start taking responsibility for their Church–start reading at Mass more often, teach CCD classes, go to daily Mass and Adoration. Basically men are the role models for the boys out there and they need to act like it. If we want more vocations to the priesthood and religious life, we as a Catholic culture/church need to work to foster them. As a woman I’m tired of hearing the excuse that girls and women are pushing men out–if more men would step up that wouldn’t be the case. The reason that more boys aren’t altar servers is because they aren’t being encouraged to do that by the parents and CCD teachers.

Why don’t you step up and suggest/encourage some boys? Seems to me that in the business world a lot of girls got encouragement from male bosses 10-15 years ago…this shouldn’t be an “us” vs. “them”…everyone is helped by getting boys involved and grown men and grown women both should be encouraging, not ignoring.

Just a quick but deep thought from little ol’ me.
 
GeorgiaCatholic said:
“…the presence of girls at the altar alters the holiness, the sacredness, and the sublimeness of what is transpiring at the altar…”

This is exactly the attitude that makes it difficult not to conclude that the church has a problem with females especially to a young girl trying to find her place in the religion. As I said earlier, I and my daughters have no delusions about female priests, but this attitude makes it hard to believe that the church does not feel that females are not of equal worth and dignity to males. I want to believe it doesn’t, but this makes clinging to that belief hard. I believe females can be seen to have equal worth even if the roles they fill are not the same. I can buy the idea that the altar “boy” experience fosters candidates to the priesthood. I can even buy that boys won’t want to do it if any girls are allowed although I think that reflects a problem with the boys and a problem those boys will have when they need to shepard women in their priesthood. What I can’t buy is that God and the church rather than just some of it’s members believe that the meer presence of girls diminishes the holiness of the sacrifice taking place on the altar.

With all due respect, it’s really not about what’s bought or not: the fact of the matter is that we are at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and to fully realize its import, it should be re-presented as accurately as possible. Girls on the altar alter the full impact. But it’s not really about girls and their importance. Obviously they’re important. But we must see the forest here and not get sidetracked in the trees, which is what focusing on girl vs. boy does. An all girls’ altar does not have the same impact as an all boys’ altar. The priest is Persona Christi (sp) and the altar boys attend the priest at the altar. It is their role to do so. Girls attending the priest qualify the impact whether we realize it or not. The message gets blurred on a subconscious level. Actually, if we look at it, the blurring of roles in our society is all around us, and if we were to delve into the phenomenon a little deeper, we would see that the blurring of roles in our society leads to myriad problems. But the comments made were not to denigrate girls and if they were taking that we, such offense only reinforces how gender perspectives define so many issues.
Think deeply about what confronts us as a Church. We are members of the body of Christ who reside within the kingdom of God on earth, His Church. As such we are members of a hierarchy with clearly defined roles, each important to the maintenance of the kingdom. With roles clearly delineated, order prevails and truth can pass on from one generation to the next. However, when the hierarchy is leveled and the roles are blurred, then there is confusion, and truth becomes muffled, confused, subjective, and upended. Girls and woman, God’s creation, have a role to play within the Church for the good of the kingdom and the glory of God. To view the girls’ role, because she is not on the altar of sacrifice, or to see the priests’ role as anti-woman is to accept the view of world regarding the Kingdom of God on earth-- as that of a big bureaucracy in need of leveling and democratizing. This notion is so embedded in many of us that the very notion that there are some functions that only men perform and only woman perform is anathema. So what we end up with, not to hurt anyone’s feelings, is the blurring of functions, and what eventually happens is that the blurred function eventually becomes feminized. There’s a need for the altar of sacrice to be attended to by males. As the source and summit, the Eucharist was the supreme gift of Jesus of the Incarnation. He passed on this most sublime power to apostles who in turn passed it on throughout the ages. We witness their descendents on the altar, all males, some potential priests,with not a “Debbie” or “Susie” among them. And you know what, Debbie and Susie will not feel inferior or undervalued because they discern that the re-presentation is what Jesus/He/Male is giving to the world.
 
Priests are not the only need within the church. We need more faithful Nuns and other orders as well. If the Holy Spirit uses their altar service as a conduit of grace that leads them to a religious vocation, then the tree was good because the fruit is.
And how many vocations to the religious life by women are being influenced by girls serving at the altar? Seems that most orders that get any vocations are the conservative ones that still wear the habit and don’t try to fill roles that should be filled by males.
What we must guard against is those who claim a decision by the Church is an abuse or should be suppressed. We should support all decisions of the Church if we agree or not. That is obedience.
It is a matter of “allowing” girls to serve, and all I’ve seen is one sentence and some clarifications making sure that altar boys must be retained and encouraged and that the local Pastor has the right to use them or not. You act like it is an infallible pronoucement. No one is challenging that the Church doesn’t have the authority, no one is saying that even if the Church allows it, its still an “abuse”.

Let us look at some of the other things the Church not just “allows” but mandates with much stronger language, like the use of Latin in the Mass.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/latin_and_english_in_the_mass.htm

The Church has constantly encouraged the use of the Mother Tongue in Mass, and not just “allowed” but says, “Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”…chirp, chirp…where is all that bluster and pomp about “obedience”?
 
  • It promotes false expectations and hopes. “If women can serve, why can’t they be priests…?”
Seems like the feminist heretics have picked up on this theme and run with it-

All quotes found at womenpriests.org

Specifically-http://www.womenpriests.org/called/mayerhof.asp
Unfortunately, one wish was denied to me: I would have loved to have been a Mass server. I do not think that I ever expressed this wish in so many words, for it seemed beyond hope. It would have been useless. For I knew the answer: “That’s impossible. It’s only for boys!” At that time girls were still kept far away from the sanctuary and the altar. In all that, I was not trying to raise myself above other children. It was far more a question of a difficult-to-describe longing to see behind things, to be close to what is Holy. I envied the boys in my neighbourhood who were allowed to serve at Mass – and could not understand why many were not interested in it!
Or this-
When we were children, a woman tells me, “girls were told they could only go on the altar [past the Communion rails to the front of the church] the day they got married. It made me angry, because my little brother was an altar boy and he could go up there any day he served Mass.” She obviously means during Mass or some other Church service, because women have been cleaning and preparing the altar since the Last Supper! Another woman relates how, as a child, she learned all the Latin responses by heart and would get to Mass early each Lenten morning in the hopes that the altar boy wouldn’t show up and the priest would let her say the responses to his Mass prayers. She had to kneel in the pew, of course, because girls weren’t allowed up there with the priest. “I can remember being told by a priest in the early 1960s that it was a mortal sin (!!) for a woman to be present in the sanctuary [altar area] of Church during Mass," Ruth Wallace writes.
From: The Catholic Woman. Difficult Choices in a Modern World, by Jeanne Pieper, Lowell House, Los Angeles 1993.
You can read their whole pernicious spiel of error here.

womenpriests.org/traditio/servers.asp

In other words: the battle is not over! (their words, NOT mine)
 
40.png
Catholic2003:
If a scandalous introduction makes a disciplinary change unworthy, then we should abolish the rule regarding priestly celibacy, seeing how the wives and children of married priests were given into perpetual slavery by the various decrees of the Church.

But if your sensibilities are different, perhaps you should suggest that former altar girls be given into slavery when the “male only” rule for altar servers is reestablished. I’m sure this will get the attention of those feminists who are trying to destroy the Church.
Like yourself perchance?
 
George Waters:
We should** always** place the will of Holy Mother Church above our own desires. I agree with that…
Even during the massive abuse and dissent that caused the Holy See to allow altar girls?
 
GENERAL NOTICE

Please DO focus on the topic not on other contributors.

Please DO NOT include personalized remarks or negative inferences towards others participating.

Please DO understand this is a thread which represents opposing viewpoints, all must allow for the “other” view.

Please DO NOT regard the opinions of others who differ with you as personal insults.

Please DO review forum standards for posting articles/reference materials to the forum boards:
Helpful Hints for Posting
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=72808
and Forum Rules
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2

"Pleasing words are like honey, sweet to the soul and new life to the bones."
 
40.png
cecelia:
I realize that this is not a doctrinal issue as such, but I must admit that I’m a little disappointed in the response given by the Vatican regarding girls at the altar.Yes the debate shouldn’t be couched in political terms, nor should it couched in terms of socializing boys and girls differently either. Having girls at the altar of sacrifice is sharp break from the Biblical priesthood and as such, the presence of girls at the altar alters the holiness, the sacredness, and the sublimeness of what is transpiring at the altar. Am I denigrating girls? Not at all. But if the Mass is the re-presentation of Calvary/Last Supper, then it should be re-presented accurately. It was to 12 men that Christ instituted the priesthood, and it is the priest/male that is Alter Christus (sp). So to have women on the altar subtly changes the re-presentation, and in so doing alters the full import of the re-presentation. The Old Testament sacrifices were always attended to by males. Why should the New Testament sacrifice be different. Breaking the manner of attending to the altar of sacrifice, in my opinion, leads to a shift in perception and, consequently, a shift in our approach to the altar. If we stop and think about it for a minute, notice how we act when we are witness to an all-male altar, with the altar boys in cossack and surplice and the priest properly dressed and the actions of the priest and the altar boys in accord with the ancient rituals. We as the congregation then tend to be more reverent because we have more of a sense of the sacrifice of the altar. With girls at the altar, the sacrificial aspect of the Mass becomes a little more muffled. A little more casualness creeps in, whether intended or not, because the girls are innately not part of the re-presentation. I wish that we would reference or locate this discussion in terms of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and what it is intended to do. If we did that, looking at the continuity of the Mass and its origins in the Old Testament, we would see that the altar should be populated by men and boys. Girls and the altar with the alb look like priestesses. Female Extradordinary Ministers of the Eucharist on the altar strip the altar of is sacrificial aspect and lend an air of busyness and clamor. The altar in which Christ re-presents himself to us is the most holy representation of the Incarnation. We should re-present it accurately, especially in this time and age when the world is rapidly losing any sense of holiness, sacredness,and sublimity. To witness the priest standing in for Christ surrounding by those who look like him on the altar of sacrifice is awe inspiring and brings us closer to God. Having girls on the altar of sacrifice does not, simply because they’re presence does not enable the full impact of the sacrifice to resonate within us.
Cecelia, with all the immaturity and bickering and totally unhealthy “discussion” going on in this thread, I am thankful for your post – I agree in many cases and disagree slightly in others, but completely respect the way in which you stated your thoughts with kindness and compassion for those who might disagree, not disgust and disdain as many have been doing. You are an example for others on how to “discuss” without berating their brothers/sisters in faith. How does the saying go, you catch more bees with honey? Some believe that you have to have a heavy hand to “slap these delinquents into realizing the right vs the wrong” but what I’ve realized is that when folks start off with the “holier than thou” nastiness I click to a new thread b/c I have enough unkindness in my life. Their entire argument is ignored b/c of the tone. I hope your post gives all those who read it pause and cause to think and discern for themselves. Good onya
 
40.png
AltarMan:
Even during the massive abuse and dissent that caused the Holy See to allow altar girls?
Alterman,

Yes, I support the Church. I am obviously not a bishop and will leave decision such as permitting girls to serve at the alter in their capable hands under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This decision was made by our pope and supported by our bishops. Who am I to question Jesus when He promised us that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church?

Any decision of the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church should not be referred to as a “Massive abuse and dissent”. You may disagree with the decision as is your right, but to refer to it as such is dissention to the rightful and lawful rule of the Roman Catholic Church.

I am sorry you are so upset over the decision to allow girls to serve at the alter, but honestly does it really effect your relationship with God?
 
I know the church needs EVERYONE to come together and support it. I support the church’s decision to have altar girls. I don’t stand outside and protest it. I silently agree and that’s it. I just don’t like. I can agree with something and not like it.
I know there’s no statistical proof that links lack of priests to girls as altar servers. There’s no statistical proof though that says by allowing girls to serve, they are going to become nuns. The vibe I get from everyone’s posts is that it’s just giving boys and girls an equal opportunity to serve God. I agree and disagree with that. Boys and girls are different, plain and simple, so they will each serve God differently. We’re human and each have our own heart and soul that only God knows.
God-willing those that are called to the religious life vocation hear the call and follow it.
I forget who said it but the best way I can think of explaining this whole post is that the church was set up by men, Jesus and his 12 apostles, and I guess traditionalists like me want to keep it that way. But alas, it’s not so that’s that. End of story.
40.png
BlackKnight:
So noted… but you may have been disappointed, but as has already been demonstrated, in at least one case it has led to the discernment of a religious calling for a girl server.

Just because the church taught something in the past about a tradition or discipline and then changed the discipline really should not have distressed you so much.

Altar servers were not the reason that we had more or less callings to the priesthood. The fact is that Catholics stopped encouraging faithful Catholic young men to even consider it. It was a sin of complacency that led us to the current problems, but I believe that that is beginning to turn around and will continue to do so because God is doing something powerful in His church.

Priests are not the only need within the church. We need more faithful Nuns and other orders as well. If the Holy Spirit uses their altar service as a conduit of grace that leads them to a religious vocation, then the tree was good because the fruit is. 🙂
 
On March 15, 1994 the decision to allow altar girls was made after 1,994 years of tradition. Even in 1980 they were forbidden…

This sad decision was made to counter certain French & German Bishops with ideas of the promulgation of women’s ordinations…but please read;
adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

Was it a mistake…yes…were there others…yes…there are too many people worrying about offending other people…but have no problem offending God.

james
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top