Girls as alter servers

[AltarMan]

maryalene:

I think the problem I have with some of your posts AlterMan is that you seem to be speaking exclusively from your limited experience in your parish. In your parish, you see feminist women pushing their daughters to be servers and hoping for priestesses. And that may be true for your parish. However, many of us have had radically different experiences in our parishes and you seem reluctant to acknowledge that the situation elsewhere may be different from your experience.

I certainly hope you have radically different experiences (for the better) in your respective parishes. I believe I adequately qualified my own statements.

 

[AltarMan]

BillyT92679:

Relax… I’d much rather have altar boys, but I’ll go along with what the Vatican allows. **Heck, I’d rather have girls serve on the Altar than not attend Mass at all. ** The Church has more wisdom than I or you could even conceive of.

That’s a very odd comment.

You set-up the rediculous sceanario that without altar servers you couldn’t (or wouldn’t be able to) attend Mass.

This is somehow supposed to make the use of female altar servers more appealing?

Straw-dog. Woof-woof. Please give us more credit than that.

 

[AltarMan]

“…the presence of girls at the altar alters the holiness, the sacredness, and the sublimeness of what is transpiring at the altar…”

This is exactly the attitude that makes it difficult not to conclude that the church has a problem with females especially to a young girl trying to find her place in the religion. As I said earlier, I and my daughters have no delusions about female priests, but this attitude makes it hard to believe that the church does not feel that females are not of equal worth and dignity to males. I want to believe it doesn’t, but this makes clinging to that belief hard. I believe females can be seen to have equal worth even if the roles they fill are not the same. I can buy the idea that the altar “boy” experience fosters candidates to the priesthood. I can even buy that boys won’t want to do it if any girls are allowed although I think that reflects a problem with the boys and a problem those boys will have when they need to shepard women in their priesthood. What I can’t buy is that God and the church rather than just some of it’s members believe that the meer presence of girls diminishes the holiness of the sacrifice taking place on the altar.

This thread now has over 200 postings and I haven’t seen such a suggestion. Could you please point me to the postings that suggest what you do in your posting? I must have missed them…

 

[mikew262]

AltarMan:

You need to study this issue. The genesis of allowing female altar servers is based in dissent and abuse – the references already exist in this thread. Enjoy.

I went back and skimmed this thread and found nothing that would cause my attitude to change, but maybe I missed something.

Again, the church has accepted this practice, and I personally see nothing wrong with it. I do have issues with some of the church’s positions, but this isn’t one of them.

 

[Catholic2003]

mikew262:

Widespread abuse? What are you talking about?

Many of those who are deathly opposed to altar girls have embraced a revisionist Church history wherein female altar servers were not allowed until 1994, instead of the 1983 date that every English language canon law commentary states. This revision allows them to claim the eleven years of the use of altar girls from 1983 to 1994 as an “abuse”.

 

[mikew262]

Catholic2003:

Many of those who are deathly opposed to altar girls have embraced a revisionist Church history wherein female altar servers were not allowed until 1994, instead of the 1983 date that every English language canon law commentary states. This revision allows them to claim the eleven years of the use of altar girls from 1983 to 1994 as an “abuse”.

I see. Thanks!

 

[Jakub]

The basis for the denial of the ordination of women to the priesthood is the Tradition passed down in the Church…the same applies to altar girls…again you pick one and ignore it for the other…thank the Lord for the Eastern Church who holds and honors traditions…

Organic growth based on tradition is one thing, innovation without tradition is another…many are trying to validate their pc-ness by ignoring tradition…sorry but it was a mistake in my eyes, but to each his own…

So someone please show me the writings of the Church and Fathers concerning the traditions of women serving at the altar prior to 1983-94 in the Latin Rite…and the Eastern Rite…it is a modern innovation based on “0”

james

 

[mikew262]

Jakub:

The basis for the denial of the ordination of women to the priesthood is the Tradition passed down in the Church…the same applies to altar girls…again you pick one and ignore it for the other…thank the Lord for the Eastern Church who holds and honors traditions…

Organic growth based on tradition is one thing, innovation without tradition is another…many are trying to validate their pc-ness by ignoring tradition…sorry but it was a mistake in my eyes, but to each his own…

So someone please show me the writings of the Church and Fathers concerning the traditions of women serving at the altar prior to 1983-94 in the Latin Rite…and the Eastern Rite…it is a modern innovation based on “0”

james

Again, what is the harm? Nobody has really answered this to any legitimate degree. All anybody has really said is that I don’t like it.

 

[AltarMan]

mikew262:

I went back and skimmed this thread and found nothing that would cause my attitude to change, but maybe I missed something.

Again, the church has accepted this practice, and I personally see nothing wrong with it. I do have issues with some of the church’s positions, but this isn’t one of them.

Let’s look at your earlier quote:

*"Widespread abuse? What are you talking about?

Again, the church allows it, so accept it, and move on to more important issues."*

You didn’t mention “something that would cause my attitude to change.” You asked about “widespread abuse.” Obviously in your case that’s two distinct things. While I have no idea what would cause your attitude to change the widespread abuse is documented in this thread. Try another skim.

You may have no problem with the practice and that’s fine. Just don’t try to erect a straw-dog argument. They’re laughable.

 

[AltarMan]

Redemptionis Sacramentum #47. It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension. Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these. Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes. Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.

Given the language of RS above, it’s clear to me that the Church will one day re-ban female altar servers. It is laying the groundwork right now.

If it did so today, too many bishops and priests would simply ignore the Holy See (just as they did prior to approval.) It might take another generation.

The next step I think in cleaning up this 1960’s/70’s sexist-feminist impact on the Church will be a definitive teaching (cr. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) from the the Church that women cannot be ordained a deaconesses. A teaching that I believe will be prommulgated during the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[mikew262]

AltarMan:

Let’s look at your earlier quote:

*"Widespread abuse? What are you talking about?

Again, the church allows it, so accept it, and move on to more important issues."*

You didn’t mention “something that would cause my attitude to change.” You asked about “widespread abuse.” Obviously in your case that’s two distinct things. While I have no idea what would cause your attitude to change the widespread abuse is documented in this thread. Try another skim.

You may have no problem with the practice and that’s fine. Just don’t try to erect a straw-dog argument. They’re laughable.

What? You are talking in circles.

Bottom line is this: The church allows female alter servers. If you don’t approve of it, fine. I know you are not alone in that opinion, however there are many (probably the majority), who have no problem with it.

IMO, nobody is abusing anyone or anything by allowing female alter servers. Its much adoo over nothing.

 

[netmilsmom]

mikew262:

Again, what is the harm? Nobody has really answered this to any legitimate degree. All anybody has really said is that I don’t like it.

What would be the harm of Female Priests?
To just put an easy “what’s the harm” on this is a huge question.

In my parish we have Altar Boys and Choir Girls. We have eight seminarians. We also have 200 Altar Boys in a parish of 750 families. Perhaps the harm is that making the Altar Servers a mixed group diminishes the importance of the boys.

I know it is not PC today to state that boys should be given the opportunity to be something special. Something different from the girls, but actually, I don’t care.

We have feminized our boys for long enough. Let them be something special. Let them be young men. They deserve it. Let them be a special group and perhaps we will see more Priests come from it. You really can’t prove that this is not the harm.

And let me add, I am the mother of girls.

 

[Jakub]

The role of altar boys has always been held traditionally to attract males to the vocation within the priesthood, the appointment/use of altar girls diminishes this role.

Instead of the strawdog statement of what is wrong with it, what is right with it ? Since we know that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood, does it increase the ranks of established women’s vocations in the Church ?

adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

james

 

[mikew262]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

What would be the harm of Female Priests?
To just put an easy “what’s the harm” on this is a huge question.

In my parish we have Altar Boys and Choir Girls. We have eight seminarians. We also have 200 Altar Boys in a parish of 750 families. Perhaps the harm is that making the Altar Servers a mixed group diminishes the importance of the boys.

I know it is not PC today to state that boys should be given the opportunity to be something special. Something different from the girls, but actually, I don’t care.

We have feminized our boys for long enough. Let them be something special. Let them be young men. They deserve it. Let them be a special group and perhaps we will see more Priests come from it. You really can’t prove that this is not the harm.

And let me add, I am the mother of girls.

Female priests vs. female alter servers? BIG, BIG difference in issues. There are several other theads discussing that issue, so I won’t pursue it here.

If a church can support their ranks with just boys, that’s fine. However, again, I have no problem seeing girls as alter servers, if it’s necessary to fill the void.

BTW, as a general rule, I agree with your premise that boys should have their own organizations and girl’s their’s.

 

[mikew262]

Jakub:

The role of altar boys has always been held traditionally to attract males to the vocation within the priesthood, the appointment/use of altar girls diminishes this role.

Instead of the strawdog statement of what is wrong with it, what is right with it ? Since we know that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood, does it increase the ranks of established women’s vocations in the Church ?

adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

james

The Church evidently doesn’t have a big problem with it. Ask the Church?

 

[netmilsmom]

mikew262:

Female priests vs. female alter servers? BIG, BIG difference in issues. There are several other theads discussing that issue, so I won’t pursue it here.

If a church can support their ranks with just boys, that’s fine. However, again, I have no problem seeing girls as alter servers, if it’s necessary to fill the void.

BTW, as a general rule, I agree with your premise that boys should have their own organizations and girl’s their’s.

But that’s the problem Mike, no one has done the studies where boys are made exclusively Altar Servers. Boys and young men alike can serve. Put in some incentives and you will get boys. Actually I have seen it happen.
Boys don’t want to be with giggly girls. Get some strong men to start serving and the boys will come. Altar Girls have just been an easy out.

 

[Jakub]

I guess there are many politicians here…they can’t or won’t directly answer a question without deferring it else where or someone else…

Where are the documents and stats that reflect a increase of priestly vocations to the Church due to the use of female altar servers/girls or to women’s existing vocations without deflecting the question else where…

It must be OK, the Vatican would have stated other wise ? I think many need to read more …

james

 

[AltarMan]

mikew262:

What? You are talking in circles.

Bottom line is this: The church allows female alter servers. If you don’t approve of it, fine. I know you are not alone in that opinion, however there are many (probably the majority), who have no problem with it.

IMO, nobody is abusing anyone or anything by allowing female alter servers. Its much adoo over nothing.

You need to stop attempting spin. Don’t change the topic.

The approval of altar servers was born out of liturgical abuse and dissent. Deal with it or don’t, but your attempts at spin and straw-men arguments are quite obvious.

 

[AltarMan]

mikew262:

Female priests vs. female alter servers? BIG, BIG difference in issues. There are several other theads discussing that issue, so I won’t pursue it here.

If a church can support their ranks with just boys, that’s fine. However, again, I have no problem seeing girls as alter servers, if it’s necessary to fill the void.

BTW, as a general rule, I agree with your premise that boys should have their own organizations and girl’s their’s.

Outside of a convent, nunnery, female prison chapel, I don’t ever see this being necessary.

 

[AltarMan]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

But that’s the problem Mike, no one has done the studies where boys are made exclusively Altar Servers. Boys and young men alike can serve. Put in some incentives and you will get boys. Actually I have seen it happen.
Boys don’t want to be with giggly girls. Get some strong men to start serving and the boys will come. Altar Girls have just been an easy out.

That’s so very true. My parish has a half dozen Masses each Sunday. For a long time we didn’t have any servers, save for a handful of girls that served at the big “family Mass.”

Some other adult males and I began to serve at the Mass we attend (we had no servers.) In time this attracted boys, male teens and other adult males.

Sadly, it also set-off alarm bells with the “altar server coordinator” (a new paid position) who now desperately attempts to import women to serve at our Mass in hopes of “breaking the lock” males have on serving at said Mass.