Girls as alter servers

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I’ve never seen this interpretation of Toledo before. Do you have any documentation for this view? I’m going from the historical discussion in Doors to the Sacred by Joseph Martos.
Praytell, how many interpretations of Toledo have you see before? What does the good doctor say about this then?
This doesn’t have anything to do with my point, which is that repeated confession (that is, being able to be absolved of sins committed after baptism more than once in a lifetime) started out as a massive abuse. Neither Rome nor the bishops came up with this practice; it came from the people. It was practiced in defiance of Church authority, as the Council of Toledo illustrates, and the abuse continued for around a hundred years before it was embraced by the Church hierarchy.
It wasn’t any disobedience by laymen that made confession a more than one time deal. The Irish church made if OK, the East did away with public pennance way back in the 300s.
And as your quotation of Trent points out, it is now the normative practice of the Church, shrouded in doctrine and dogma.
“Shrouded in doctrine and dogma”? Hmm…seems like rather strong words to be slung at the Church. Do you not agree with the Doctrine and Dogma of the Church?
 
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ComradeAndrei:
Praytell, how many interpretations of Toledo have you see before?
In addition to Martos, I’ve read Theological Investigations, volume XV: Penance in the Early Church by Karl Rahner and The Evolving Church and the Sacrament of Penance by Ladislas Orsy.
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ComradeAndrei:
It wasn’t any disobedience by laymen that made confession a more than one time deal. The Irish church made if OK, the East did away with public pennance way back in the 300s.
Do you have any references for this? This is completely different than everything that I have read. [This chart by Tom Richstatter](http://www.tomrichstatter.org/r reconciliation/r28vati2.htm#History of the Sacrament of Reconciliation) gives 600 A.D. as the start of Celtic penance.

ComradeAndrei said:
“Shrouded in doctrine and dogma”? Hmm…seems like rather strong words to be slung at the Church. Do you not agree with the Doctrine and Dogma of the Church?

No, you misunderstand. “Shrouded in doctrine and dogma” is a good thing. A very good thing that came out of an origin of massive abuse on a scale that puts any abuse associated with altar girls to shame.
 
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Catholic2003:
In addition to Martos, I’ve read Theological Investigations, volume XV: Penance in the Early Church by Karl Rahner and The Evolving Church and the Sacrament of Penance by Ladislas Orsy.

Do you have any references for this? This is completely different than everything that I have read. [This chart by Tom Richstatter](http://www.tomrichstatter.org/r reconciliation/r28vati2.htm#History of the Sacrament of Reconciliation) gives 600 A.D. as the start of Celtic penance.

No, you misunderstand. “Shrouded in doctrine and dogma” is a good thing. A very good thing that came out of an origin of massive abuse on a scale that puts any abuse associated with altar girls to shame.
Anyone who cites Rahner is suspect in my book.
 
There seems to be an immutable, irrefutable thread of logic that some have developed in this thread, to wit:

*We should pay little attention to the directives of the Holy See. If we feel that a practice is worthwhile, even if it hasn’t been approved by the Holy See and, in fact, even if it has been specifically condemned, we should still continue it because someday the Church may approve it. *

Therefore, if I may take this line of thinking to its logical conclusion, allow me to be the first to propose the following for those of us opposed to girl altar boys:

We should discourage and, in most instances, actively suppress the use of girl altar boys. Since the precedent has already been established, when some hand-wringer approaches us and says, “Well, Rome has approved…” our response should be, “Tough. We’re going to continue to suppress girl altar boys. Someday, Rome will agree with us.” This seems to me to be the most logical and, indeed, Traditional, approach to achieving the speedy suppression of girl altar boys.

But I’ve always been cursed with a surfeit of logic. Darn non-public school education. :mad:
 
Dr. Bombay:
We should discourage and, in most instances, actively suppress the use of girl altar boys. Since the precedent has already been established, when some hand-wringer approaches us and says, “Well, Rome has approved…” our response should be, “Tough. We’re going to continue to suppress girl altar boys. Someday, Rome will agree with us.” This seems to me to be the most logical and, indeed, Traditional, approach to achieving the speedy suppression of girl altar boys.
Your approach has already born fruit. Witness the CDW’s 2001 letter that legitimized the widespread disobedience by uber-traditional priests who violated their vows of obedience and suppressed female altar servers against the express instructions of their bishops.
 
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MrS:
Toledo is a city just south of the Michigan border… spent a week there one night.
Personally, I would’ve held the Council in Cleveland or even Akron. But I wasn’t around to make those decisions. Who knows why the Holy Ghost chose holy Toledo?
 
Dr. Bombay:
There seems to be an immutable, irrefutable thread of logic that some have developed in this thread, to wit:

We should pay little attention to the directives of the Holy See. If we feel that a practice is worthwhile, even if it hasn’t been approved by the Holy See and, in fact, even if it has been specifically condemned, we should still continue it because someday the Church may approve it.

Therefore, if I may take this line of thinking to its logical conclusion, allow me to be the first to propose the following for those of us opposed to girl altar boys:

We should discourage and, in most instances, actively suppress the use of girl altar boys. Since the precedent has already been established, when some hand-wringer approaches us and says, “Well, Rome has approved…” our response should be, “Tough. We’re going to continue to suppress girl altar boys. Someday, Rome will agree with us.” This seems to me to be the most logical and, indeed, Traditional, approach to achieving the speedy suppression of girl altar boys.

But I’ve always been cursed with a surfeit of logic. Darn non-public school education. :mad:
there must be something wrong with your logic… it is too logical perhaps…
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_137.gif
 
In addition to Martos, I’ve read Theological Investigations, volume XV: Penance in the Early Church by Karl Rahner and The Evolving Church and the Sacrament of Penance by Ladislas Orsy.
While I’m not going to say that your authors are heterodox, they certainly aren’t very traditional.

Fr. Orsy wrote in opposition to Fr. Avery Dulles (both Jesuits, but Fr. Dulles is a champion of orthodoxy in an otherwise mostly modernist “Society”) about a decentralization of the papacy, a more “democratic” election of bishops, etc.

Rahner is another questionable Jesuit, but I think the Church declares him orthodox.

Furthermore, do they all offer interpretations for this specific Council?
Do you have any references for this? This is completely different than everything that I have read. This chart by Tom Richstatter gives 600 A.D. as the start of Celtic penance.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
The mitigation of public penance which this passage indicates continued throughout the subsequent period, especially the Middle Ages. The office of poenitentiarius had already (390) been abolished in the East by Nestorius, Patriarch of Constantinople, in consequence of a scandal that grew out of public confession. Soon afterwards, the four “stations” disappeared, and public penance fell into disuse. ln the West it underwent a more gradual transformation. Excommunication continued in use, and the interdict was frequently resorted to. The performance of penance was left in large measure to the zeal and good will of the penitent; increasing clemency was shown by allowing the reconciliation to take place somewhat before the prescribed time was completed; and the practice was introduced of commuting the enjoined penance into other exercises or works of piety, such as prayer and almsgiving. According to a decree of the Council of Clermont (1095), those who joined a crusade were freed from all obligation in the matter of penance. Finally it became customary to let the reconciliation follow immediately after confession. With these modifications the ancient usage had practically disappeared by the middle of the sixteenth century. Some attempts were made to revive it after the Council of Trent, but these were isolated and of short duration. (See INDULGENCES.)
Now, I will go so far as to call this source you cite (Tom Richstetter) heterodox.

The author of that page makes a distinction between the “old” form of “Confession” and the “new” form of “Reconciliation”. He speaks of the “liturgy” aspect of Confession being “words of absolution” and the “liturgy” aspect of “Reconciliation” being “Gathering, Story Telling, Reconciling, Commissioning”. Hmm…sounds like heresy to me.

Then we have his take on who the ministers are of the Sacrament (he says “ministries” but I assume he means ministers). For the “old” Confession he says “an ordained priest with proper jurisdiction” but for “Reconciliation” it is supposedly “the community and its ministers and its pastor”. Major misunderstanding at the least, heresy at the worst.

If you read what the current Catechism of the Catholic Church says about Confession, it is the same as was described by Trent (or at least should be). It is not some community kumbayaa time get together. Actually, community “reconciliation” services are illicit to go to if they presume to forgive mortal sins. Mortal sins still require the use of the individual confession to a priest (or bishop of course) unless in times of grave emergency.
No, you misunderstand. “Shrouded in doctrine and dogma” is a good thing. A very good thing that came out of an origin of massive abuse on a scale that puts any abuse associated with altar girls to shame.
I still don’t see how this came out of abuse. The Church defined that this is the way it should be. The Church has absolutely no reason to listen to heretics or scofflaws.

I question your sources and I question your interpretation of the whole matter.

Again, let us consult the Holy Fathers of the Council of Trent-

The Fourteenth Session, On the Most Holy Sacraments of Penance and Extreme Unction, Canon VI-
CANON VI.–If any one denieth, either that sacramental confession was instituted, or is necessary to salvation, of divine right; or saith, that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Church hath ever observed from the beginning, and doth observe, is alien from the institution and command of Christ, and is a human invention; let him be anathema.
So, private confesssion to a priest did not start out as an abuse, rather it has been all along, unlike as you so fancifully assert.
 
We should discourage and, in most instances, actively suppress the use of girl altar boys. Since the precedent has already been established, when some hand-wringer approaches us and says, “Well, Rome has approved…” our response should be, “Tough. We’re going to continue to suppress girl altar boys. Someday, Rome will agree with us.” This seems to me to be the most logical and, indeed, Traditional, approach to achieving the speedy suppression of girl altar boys.
Sometimes you just got to fight fire with fire. If the liberals want to whine and cry and try to chip away at the traditions of the Church, it is in a way our fault too. We should be there stamping out their scandalous ideas with equal vigor.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Personally, I would’ve held the Council in Cleveland or even Akron. But I wasn’t around to make those decisions. Who knows why the Holy Ghost chose holy Toledo?
They wanted to go to COSI.
Or maybe it was the HotDogs at Tony Packo’s.
 
It’s here and it’s done, even if we don’t like it. We’ll see if the Vatican changes their minds.
 
mrs_abbott said:
This is one area that I wish the Church hadn’t given in on. I was disappointed when they allowed girls to be alter servers and assist the priest during Mass.
When I was growing up, I was taught that it was important for young men to be alter servers because it gave them an opportunity to assist in the Mass and discern whether or not they wanted to join the priesthood. Now, since girls can’t be priests,** I didn’t quite understand why they were allowed to be alter servers.
It sounds like another Equal Rights Movement **sticking their nose in the Church’s affairs. Am I wrong on this?
Does anyone know the reason why girls are now allowed to be alter servers? :confused:

So after a couple of hundred posts… with no real remedy… you can’t just say the matter is done. What matter is done?? More and more priests are saying NO. Sounds like we need to encourage them… the Vatican already has a preference and now they need to see support from the trenches.

Perhaps those who posted, and who have boys, will now find the courage to encourage them to serve. Otherwise we are going to see “Girl-Altar-Boys” threads again and again (but not forever, IMHO)
 
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MrS:
So after a couple of hundred posts… with no real remedy… you can’t just say the matter is done. What matter is done?? More and more priests are saying NO. Sounds like we need to encourage them… the Vatican already has a preference and now they need to see support from the trenches.

Perhaps those who posted, and who have boys, will now find the courage to encourage them to serve. Otherwise we are going to see “Girl-Altar-Boys” threads again and again (but not forever, IMHO)
Excellent point. The Church also said “no” for well over a thousand years. It wasn’t until the sexist-feminists and other dissenters took it upon themselves to allow females to serve in defiance of the Holy See did the Vatican change its mind.

Push had for no female altar servers in your parishes – it’s not even an abuse – and do so while helping to recruit males.
 
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Catholic2003:
Your approach has already born fruit. Witness the CDW’s 2001 letter that legitimized the widespread disobedience by uber-traditional priests who violated their vows of obedience and suppressed female altar servers against the express instructions of their bishops.
This followed abuses by the dissenting sexist-feminists who just “had” to ensure females were allowed to serve. I wonder what they accomplished except the ability to stroke their own egos?
 
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ComradeAndrei:
Furthermore, do they all offer interpretations for this specific Council?
This is from Fr. Orsy’s book:
One text is from the Third Council of Toledo held in 589. It was a particular, but important, council. Sixty-two bishops participated; the recently converted king of the Visigoths, Rekkared, was present also. There a number of Arian bishops were reconciled, and the unity of the Church was restored. The king and the Fathers made solemn profression of the faith according to the Councils of Nicea, Constantinople I and Chalcedon. To safeguard the purity of faith, the Council issued twenty-three doctrinal statements and another twenty-three disciplinary capitula. The eleventh is on penance:
We have learned that, throughout some churches parishes and/or dioceses] of Spain, the faithful are doing penance not according to the canonical rule but in another detestable way. That is, as many times as it pleases them to sin, they ask a presbyter to grant them pardon.
We want to put an end to such an abominable presumption. Therefore,] this sacred council orders that penances be given according to the rite procedure] prescribed by the ancient canons: that is, that the person who repents his evil deeds be excluded temporarily from Eucharistic communion and, along with other penitents, ask often for the imposition of hands; and that, when the time of his satisfaction is completed according to the judgment of the bishop, he be readmitted to communion.
Those who relapse into their sins, either while doing penance or after they have been reconciled, must be condemned according to the severity of the ancient canons (Concilium Toletanum III, capitulum 11; Mansi, Conciliorum collectio, vol. 9, col. 995).
The discussions of the bishops have not been recorded for us, but the terms used by them give some indication of the mood and attitude. They saw nothing of value in the Irish practice; they called it detestable. They must have thought of it as an illegitimate innovation, otherwise their sweeping condemnation makes no sense. Had they been aware of an ancient tradition of private confessions followed by private absolutions, they could not have spoken in such violent terms.
I’ve returned Rahner’s book to the library long ago, so I cannot provide any quotes from it.

ComradeAndrei said:
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

Now, I will go so far as to call this source you cite (Tom Richstetter) heterodox.

You throw the term “heterodox” around quite freely. I also notice that you provided a link to the old 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia. It may interest you to know that Fr. Richstatter authored eight entries in the 1978 New Catholic Encyclopedia. He is an acknowledged expert on Liturgy and Sacramental Theology.
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ComradeAndrei:
I still don’t see how this came out of abuse. The Church defined that this is the way it should be. The Church has absolutely no reason to listen to heretics or scofflaws.

I question your sources and I question your interpretation of the whole matter.
I’m not surprised that we can’t agree about Church history from nearly two thousand years ago, given the repeated attempts from altar girl opponents to rewrite history from two decades ago.
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ComradeAndrei:
Again, let us consult the Holy Fathers of the Council of Trent-

The Fourteenth Session, On the Most Holy Sacraments of Penance and Extreme Unction, Canon VI-

So, private confesssion to a priest did not start out as an abuse, rather it has been all along, unlike as you so fancifully assert.
This mentions nothing about repeated confession.
 
Since I had to dig Fr. Orsy’s book out of the attic, here is another interesting section:
A regional Council of Paris, in 829, goes further. It directs the bishops to search for the penitential books and to have them all burned:
Many priests, partly by negligence, partly by ignorance, do not follow canon law when they impose penances on those who confess their guilt. Such priests] use for their guides certain books composed against canonical authorities; they are the so-called penitential books. By their action, they do not heal the wounds of sin, they rather make their condition worse . . . Rightfully, we all agree and decree] that every bishop should order a diligent search for those books full of errors. When they are found, he should have them burned so that no more ignorant priests can deceive the faithful (Concilium Parisiense, caput 32; Mansi: vol. 14, col. 559).
 
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