Girls as alter servers

[dwc]

I have two daughters and a son. My oldest daughter and my son are altar servers. My youngest daughter is not old enough, but she will serve when she is. My oldest daughter wanted to serve and does a very reverent job and takes it very seriously. My son didn’t want to serve and does it out of protest. He doesn’t like it, doesn’t want to be in front of all those people and complains how we make him when his friends’ parents don’t make them. In our parish school about 65% of the servers are girls.

Now some of you will say the boys don’t want to because the girls do it – hogwash. They do all other sorts of activities, sports, etc with girls and don’t complain about it. As far as girl altar servers being the cause of reduced priest vocations – the timing doesn’t match up. The number of newly ordained priests had dropped off way before altar girls became accepted. There were a lot of other societal changes which affected boys’ desires to become priests before altar girls.

“…the presence of girls at the altar alters the holiness, the sacredness, and the sublimeness of what is transpiring at the altar…”

This is exactly the attitude that makes it difficult not to conclude that the church has a problem with females especially to a young girl trying to find her place in the religion

Exactly.

 

[Catholic2003]

ComradeAndrei:

II know why we can’t agree on history, you can’t put one and one together.

The problem is that I keep coming with two while you keep telling me the answer is three.

ComradeAndrei:

So, to reiterate, let us again look to the Council. This time, read them together-

Canon I tells us that confession can be used as often as people fall into sin, i.e., repeated confession is doctrinally sound.

Canon VI tells us private confession to a priest has been observed from the beginning of the Church.

To conclude from these two canons that repeated private confession to a priest has been observed from the beginning of the Church is like adding one plus one and getting three. I’ll bet if you mix and match the words from all the different canons you can get it to spell out “George Bush is the anti-Christ!”

ComradeAndrei:

I don’t care what some modernist theologians or historians say-the Church has already spoken on the matter.

The modern Edit Catechism of the Catholic Church even states (CCC 1447) that the early Church practiced once per lifetime confession.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

The Vatican may very well have issued an “authentic” interpretation in 1994, 11 years after the '83 Code, retroactively approving the use of girl altar boys.

That, however, does nothing to explain why my parish priest was using girl altar boys in the late 70s. I’m sure the good Father didn’t come up with that idea on his own. By that time, the dissenters had a stranglehold on most of the American Church, so I’m quite certain it began as a concerted, agenda-driven effort. And, in some quarters, it continues as such to this day. This issue goes far beyond, “Doesn’t my granddaughter look cute in that cassock?” Take the blinders off.

Now I suppose someone’s going to tell me that the 1917 Code of Canon Law also approved the use of girl altar boys?

 

[AltarMan]

Catholic2003:

Those who supported female altar servers had no need of a dubium; the canon law had already been changed, and female altar servers were already being implemented.

What a poor opinion of the Holy See you must have, if you think the Pope would fail to do the right thing merely because of how it would be received. Did Pope Paul VI decide not teach against contraception because the laity wouldn’t comply? Did Pope John Paul II decide not teach against women priests because of the inevitable dissent? The answer in both cases is a resounding “NO”.

Your hypothesized scenarios about the Holy See “caving in” to feminists are completely lacking in logical consistency as well as in any semblance to the historical facts.

Obviously somebody thought a response was necessary, because the question was asked. You live in fantasy if you believe the Church cleared the way for altar girls in 1983. It happened it 1994.

I don’t have a low opinion of the Holy See, although I certainly wish JPII had done a better job of administering the Church during his otherwise magnificent tenure.

I do however have a very low opinion of the dissenters and abusers that back the Church into nasty corners such as this one. In this case it was the sexist-feminists and their supporters, much like their participation in the Truce of 1968.

You brought-up artificial contraception. Thanks be to God that Pope JPII stood the ground on that one. While I don’t equate altar girls to the killing of innocent babies, I know first hand that there are large numbers of “Catholics” (many of whom are sexist-feminists in their own right) who are doing everything in their power to undermine the Church when it comes to this area. The very same type of person in many cases that encouraged altar girls long before they were approved by the Church.

Take as many shots as you like, but your sexist-feminist agenda has been underscored each and every time this topic has surfaced.

 

[AltarMan]

dwc:

I have two daughters and a son. My oldest daughter and my son are altar servers. My youngest daughter is not old enough, but she will serve when she is. My oldest daughter wanted to serve and does a very reverent job and takes it very seriously. My son didn’t want to serve and does it out of protest. He doesn’t like it, doesn’t want to be in front of all those people and complains how we make him when his friends’ parents don’t make them. In our parish school about 65% of the servers are girls.

Why do people attempt to use these rediculous straw-dogs in ill-fated attempts to “argue” their positions? You daughter may do a great job. So? You son may do a poor job and has to be forced to serve. So? Don’t try to sell your daughter’s serving by telling us about the failures of your son. The two events are mutually exclusive.

Oh, and don’t force your son to serve!

 

[netmilsmom]

dwc:

I have two daughters and a son. My oldest daughter and my son are altar servers. My youngest daughter is not old enough, but she will serve when she is. My oldest daughter wanted to serve and does a very reverent job and takes it very seriously. My son didn’t want to serve and does it out of protest. He doesn’t like it, doesn’t want to be in front of all those people and complains how we make him when his friends’ parents don’t make them. In our parish school about 65% of the servers are girls.

Your son may well be a little more open to serving if he had started young (ours start at 5) and there were no girls in the program. Watch a playground full of 8 to 12 year olds. Boys don’t hang with girls.
Maybe your boy does but not around here. Also, his sisters being servers might be a factor. Ewwww, would me my nephew’s reaction to that.

We have 250 boys/men serving.

My girls love singing in the choir.

 

[dwc]

Why do people attempt to use these rediculous straw-dogs in ill-fated attempts to “argue” their positions? You daughter may do a great job. So? You son may do a poor job and has to be forced to serve. So? Don’t try to sell your daughter’s serving by telling us about the failures of your son. The two events are mutually exclusive

1. Seems you get a little anxious when faced with fact. I related these facts about my children to refute the statements in this thread that boys don’t want to be altar servers because of the girls, or that girls are pushing boys out. From what I see with my son and his friends, a lot of boys just are not interested, period. See, I’m on the frontline here, raising future Catholics, and I probably have a better feel for what’s going on than those who aren’t rearing children right now.
2. I’m not trying to “sell” my daughter serving to you. I don’t care one bit what you think of my daughter serving. My priests, my bishop and John Paul the Great are all fine with my daughter serving. You don’t get a vote.

Oh, and don’t force your son to serve!

Once again, you don’t get a vote. My husband and I will make the decisions we believe are best for our son. Not you.

Finally, after reading some of the posts on this thread, I take great comfort in realizing that the majority of Catholics, certainly the majority of those raising the next generation of Catholics, as well as the vast majority of bishops and priests and oh, did I mention JP 2, have a much greater appreciation of women than do some of you on this thread.

 

[dwc]

Maybe your boy does but not around here. Also, his sisters being servers might be a factor. Ewwww, would me my nephew’s reaction to that.

Actually, my son will only serve with his sister. He doesn’t like serving, but made it clear that if he has to, he wants to serve with his sister.

As for the “boys don’t hang out with girls” statement – well, mostly the boys at my kids’ school hang out with boys, but they are also friendly with the girls. These kids have been together since kindergarten for the most part and are very familiar and friendly. Or maybe their school just does a better job than others of encouraging mutual respect and acceptance between the sexes.

I find the assumption that boys should automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved troublesome and unhealthy. My son (10.5) played indoor soccer all winter in a coed league. All of the kids on the team were serious about soccer and played very well as a team. My son and his friend had no problem playing on a team with girls.

 

[otm]

ComradeAndrei:

You know, that is still an abuse and an error. If we go to Confession with presumption and with every intention just to do it all again, it doesn’t profit us one bit. It is not saying that individual auricular confession is an abuse.

The statement might have been better constructed, but you and I both know the poster did not mean that one could go to confession with a presumption of sinning again. You know that the early Church only allowed the sacrament once in a life time, and the Irish monks, in direct violation of that, allowed the penitent to confess more than once in a lifetime. Or don’t ;you know that?

ComradeAndrei:

Furthermore, the Council of Toledo is a local council, not an Ecumenical Council that can actually define dogma. While the Council of Toledo had authority over Spain (or whatever region was carved out of the area at the time), it does not hold for the whole Church. Also, what is the context for their decree? Was the old protestant charge that “Catholics can sin as much as they want, because they can just go to confession…” happening in their area?

Again, you seem to be purposely missing the point. Neither the number of times one receives the sacrament of confession not the issue of female altar servers are issues of doctrine or dogma. Both are issues of discipline.

 

[GeorgiaCatholic]

Altar Man,

You seem to think slinging “sexist-feminist” around is the ultimate trump card. Can we separate this from the question of altar girls for the moment? I do not consider myself a “feminist” in the sense you seem to mean it. I do strive to understand what my role as a woman is expected to be in the Church. You might see it as a weakness on my part and think that I should just accept my “lowly” state and learn to live quietly with that rather than strive to find the worthy role God intended for women. I do think God and the members of the Church think motherhood is a very worthy and holy role for a woman to have and I thank God for allowing me to be one. What about all the women in the world who are not lucky enough to be a mother? What about all the women in the world who aren’t wives? Is there no other worthy and holy role for them to fill? You seem to feel that the Church is headed for ruin because there are too many women involved already. Society and the Church have seemed to value the role of nun less and less. I am not saying women should be priests. I can see many reasons why this is not a good idea even if it was possible. Those reasons are practical ones not for the reason that women can’t be as holy as men and would “dirty” the sacrafice. So where does that leave women in your mind?

 

[otm]

Jakub:

The role of altar boys has always been held traditionally to attract males to the vocation within the priesthood, the appointment/use of altar girls diminishes this role.

Instead of the strawdog statement of what is wrong with it, what is right with it ? Since we know that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood, does it increase the ranks of established women’s vocations in the Church ?

adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html

james

That makes for an interesting question. Perhaps a survey of all of the orders of nuns which are showing growth (as opposed to dying out) would be helpful. Of all of the women who have entered the order - temporarily or permanently, in the last 15 years, how many served as an altar server? Howm many didn’t?

I only have anectdotal evidence of one - from my parish. She is now headed for mission work in Central America, after studying in Rome. But again, that is onloy anecdotal…

 

[otm]

ComradeAndrei:

Again, let us consult the Holy Fathers of the Council of Trent-

The Fourteenth Session, On the Most Holy Sacraments of Penance and Extreme Unction, Canon VI-

So, private confesssion to a priest did not start out as an abuse, rather it has been all along, unlike as you so fancifully assert.

Guess what. the Fathers of Trent were wrong; history shows otherwise. You need to do a little more reading in the history of sacramental theology.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

dwc:

Actually, my son will only serve with his sister. He doesn’t like serving, but made it clear that if he has to, he wants to serve with his sister.

As for the “boys don’t hang out with girls” statement – well, mostly the boys at my kids’ school hang out with boys, but they are also friendly with the girls. These kids have been together since kindergarten for the most part and are very familiar and friendly. Or maybe their school just does a better job than others of encouraging mutual respect and acceptance between the sexes.

I find the assumption that boys should automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved troublesome and unhealthy. My son (10.5) played indoor soccer all winter in a coed league. All of the kids on the team were serious about soccer and played very well as a team. My son and his friend had no problem playing on a team with girls.

“Should automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved???” What is that? How about, boys do automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved. That’s the way little boys are hard-wired. All the pc blathering about “tolerance,” “respect” and “acceptance” won’t change that simple fact.

I see nothing wrong with little boys and little girls having their own activities and interests. Forced collegiality does nothing to alter the way God made us.

Besides, girls have cooties.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Canon I tells us that confession can be used as often as people fall into sin, i.e., repeated confession is doctrinally sound.

There is no “can be used as often”, it says that if anyone denies Christ established the Sacrament for the reconcilliation of sinners as often and they fall into sin from the time of baptism, let them be anathema.

Canon VI tells us private confession to a priest has been observed from the beginning of the Church.

OK, we got that one.

To conclude from these two canons that repeated private confession to a priest has been observed from the beginning of the Church is like adding one plus one and getting three. I’ll bet if you mix and match the words from all the different canons you can get it to spell out “George Bush is the anti-Christ!”

If the Council teaches that the Sacrament was established by Christ for reconciling sinners as often as they fall into sin, this would mean that this was around since the begining. Also, if the Council teaches that confessing secretly to a priest alone has been and is the constant practice of the Church since the begining, it would logically follow that confessing secretly to a priest as often as necessary was in practice since the begining.

The modernist Catechism of the Catholic Church even states (CCC 1447) that the early Church practiced once per lifetime confession.

Let us look at the pertinent part of CCC 1447-

To this “order of penitents” (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and **in certain regions ** only once in a lifetime.

In certain regions-once in a lifetime. Seems like the practice was a little more fluid. The “Order of Penitents” wasn’t the only game in town.

Guess what. the Fathers of Trent were wrong; history shows otherwise. You need to do a little more reading in the history of sacramental theology.

So, do you deny what Trent teaches? Seems like they put a pretty heavy penalty on denying what they taught.

 

[dwc]

"S

hould automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved???" What is that? How about, boys do automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved. That’s the way little boys are hard-wired. All the pc blathering about “tolerance,” “respect” and “acceptance” won’t change that simple fact.

You say boys do automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved. Just because you say that doesn’t change the simple fact that they don’t. My son and his friends play coed soccer voluntarily(as you overlooked and didn’t address-- just thought I’d remind you ) and also work on projects with girls and don’t drag their feet about it or complain. They just do it, matter of factly. Of course, a lot of the time they just play with each other, too. But this assumption you have that boys will automatically shun ANY activity because girls are involved is a lot of blathering to me. I Maybe your sons did – if so, maybe it was because of your own attitudes toward women and your own expectations of their behavior.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

"S

You say boys do automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved. Just because you say that doesn’t change the simple fact that they don’t. My son and his friends play coed soccer voluntarily(as you overlooked and didn’t address-- just thought I’d remind you ) and also work on projects with girls and don’t drag their feet about it or complain. They just do it, matter of factly. Of course, a lot of the time they just play with each other, too. But this assumption you have that boys will automatically shun ANY activity because girls are involved is a lot of blathering to me. I Maybe your sons did – if so, maybe it was because of your own attitudes toward women and your own expectations of their behavior.

My, don’t you make a lot of assumptions about me, my progeny and my attitude toward the fairer sex?

Left to their own devices, little boys and little girls will, by and large, segregate themselves. Just because you deny that doesn’t change the simple fact that they do. If a bunch of adults try to alter natural behavior, that says more about the adults than it does about the kids.

And I will not address your child’s coed soccer league since I know nothing about you, your child, the availability of sex-specific soccer leagues in your area or any external pressures that may be brought to bear to conform to this coed utopia.

 

[Catholic2003]

ComradeAndrei:

Also, if the Council teaches that confessing secretly to a priest alone has been and is the constant practice of the Church since the begining, it would logically follow that confessing secretly to a priest as often as necessary was in practice since the begining.

Your logic isn’t very logical. From CCC 1447, with emphasis added this time:

During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the “private” practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament.

ComradeAndrei:

In certain regions-once in a lifetime. Seems like the practice was a little more fluid. The “Order of Penitents” wasn’t the only game in town.

In certain regions, the historical evidence for “once in a lifetime” is so overwhelmingly conclusive that it cannot be denied. However, the preponderance of the evidence is that the “once in a lifetime” rule applied in all regions.

 

[dwc]

Left to their own devices, little boys and little girls will,* by and large*, segregate themselves. Just because you deny that doesn’t change the simple fact that they do

Oh, I don’t deny that by and large boys will play with boys and girls will play with girls, if by “by and large” you mean often or mostly. But that’s not your claim. **Your **claim is this:

How about, boys do automatically shun any activity just because girls are involved. That’s the way little boys are hard-wired.

Playing among their own sex, by and large, is very different from automatically shunning anything in which little girls are involved. Are you backing down from that statement?

My, don’t you make a lot of assumptions about me, my progeny and my attitude toward the fairer sex?

Hmm, let me think about this … yup, guess I am and I’ll tell you what I’m basing it on:

1. You speak with such authority about how little boys are all hard wired to automatically shun little girls – if you weren’t just blowing smoke it had to be based on something, the most likely being fatherly experience.
2. What are taught as virtues in my kids’ Catholic school – tolerance, respect and acceptance of others --is merely “pc blathering” to you;
3. Your assumption that if boys and girls are able to tolerate each other and work together it’s because adults have somehow altered natural behavior – natural behavior being the innate desire of boys to shun anything girls are involved in.

 

[adrift]

1) Seems you get a little anxious when faced with fact. I related these facts about my children to refute the statements in this thread that boys don’t want to be altar servers because of the girls, or that girls are pushing boys out. From what I see with my son and his friends, a lot of boys just are not interested, period. See, I’m on the frontline here, raising future Catholics, and I probably have a better feel for what’s going on than those who aren’t rearing children right now.

I think you protest to much and actually prove what your are trying to protest. You say a lot of boys are not interested. Yes I see that too and it is because of girls serving. We had more boys than could be used in our parish until girls started serving. Now we have few boys. I hear from others that this is not unusal.

You wish to dismiss the understanding that a man has of this situation. Your observations are from the outside and a feminine position. You are mistaken. I use to believe like you that the difference in sexes was social and not innate and than I reared four sons. I have a friend who’s son wanted to do gymnastics until he realized there were no other boys in the class. I have been amazed about how much boys are boys because they are meant to be boys. It sounds like your son is still young and you may have not hit that part of life when boys DO shun girls and they won’t be telling you that they do. They just will.

.

 

[AltarMan]

1) Seems you get a little anxious when faced with fact. I related these facts about my children to refute the statements in this thread that boys don’t want to be altar servers because of the girls, or that girls are pushing boys out. From what I see with my son and his friends, a lot of boys just are not interested, period. See, I’m on the frontline here, raising future Catholics, and I probably have a better feel for what’s going on than those who aren’t rearing children right now.

1. I’m not trying to “sell” my daughter serving to you. I don’t care one bit what you think of my daughter serving. My priests, my bishop and John Paul the Great are all fine with my daughter serving. You don’t get a vote.

3.) Once again, you don’t get a vote. My husband and I will make the decisions we believe are best for our son. Not you.

Finally, after reading some of the posts on this thread, I take great comfort in realizing that the majority of Catholics, certainly the majority of those raising the next generation of Catholics, as well as the vast majority of bishops and priests and oh, did I mention JP 2, have a much greater appreciation of women than do some of you on this thread.

1.) You honestly don’t know what a straw-man argument is, do you? You need to find out because you tried to make one and they are fallacious.

2.) You were trying to sell her by using a straw-man argument. Woof-woof.

3.) You have some MAJOR issues if "My son didn’t want to serve and does it out of protest. He doesn’t like it, doesn’t want to be in front of all those people and complains how we make him." Make that HUGE problems…

4.) Another straw-man! Weeeeeeeeeeeee-haaaaaaaa!