Girls as alter servers

[AltarMan]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I am the one who said “Altar Boys” and “Choir Girls”. It has nothing to do with a boy not being able to sing. It has to do with the idea of giving our girls a place in the liturgy that is not on the Altar.

I will defend this idea. My girls do not want to serve on the Altar, they love being part of the choir. These are the standards set in our parish for many years. **Our priest makes both roles equally important but seperate. **

To use the Bible quote about letting the little children come to Jesus is not appropriate here. No one is keeping any child from having a part in the liturgy, just each in their place.

That maturity and wisdom is lost on the sexist-feminists – both male and female.

Your priest sounds wonderful.

 

[AltarMan]

Even though it is part of canon law (based on the 1994 responsum) Pope Benedict XVI could eliminate the option of allowing females to serve at the altar.

Would that really stop the lamentable practice? Unfortunately in this septic day and age, dissident bishops and priests would allow the practice to continue. I doubt they would have the nerve to openly challange the Holy See. They would simply rely on the same slithering techniques they have used in the past. In addition, the sexist-feminists would be running around in circles screaming bloody murder.

What would the Church’s likely response be? Based on the actions of the Church throughout Pope JPII’s pontificate, not a whole lot. They would be next to no follow-through.

It it wrong to say there would likely be next to no follow through and that the practice would continue with those in dissent? Sure – based on history. Has nothing to do with having a low opinion of the Church.

 

[Catholic2003]

AltarMan:

Even though it is part of canon law (based on the 1994 responsum) Pope Benedict XVI could eliminate the option of allowing females to serve at the altar.

Would that really stop the lamentable practice? Unfortunately in this septic day and age, dissident bishops and priests would allow the practice to continue. I doubt they would have the nerve to openly challange the Holy See. They would simply rely on the same slithering techniques they have used in the past. In addition, the sexist-feminists would be running around in circles screaming bloody murder.

What would the Church’s likely response be? Based on the actions of the Church throughout Pope JPII’s pontificate, not a whole lot. They would be next to no follow-through.

It it wrong to say there would likely be next to no follow through and that the practice would continue with those in dissent? Sure – based on history. Has nothing to do with having a low opinion of the Church.

The low opinion part comes in when you assume that Pope Benedict XVI would fail to do the right thing merely because of possible (or even likely) dissent.

 

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

That maturity and wisdom is lost on the sexist-feminists – both male and female.

Your priest sounds wonderful.

But I feel that more than the feminist agenda pushing the idea of Altar Girls, it has now moved to parents. Those that state that his/her daughter loves it and now has an important place in the liturgy, I am actually offended by.

It belittles my girls and THEIR place in the liturgy. That is a shame. Just as a nun is not a priest, in the past the nuns were equally as important. It’s like saying that a Dad is more important than a Mom. That is just not true. Both equally are important in the life of a child. Our nuns “rocked the cradle” of Catholics. The priests were more distant from our everyday life but our shepherds. Both were equally important to life as a whole, just in different ways.

However some lay women did not see it that way and nuns have been marginalized.

Thank Goodness the “habited” nuns are making a comeback. God Love every one of them.

 

[TobyLue]

This whole thing is a non-issue in my parish.

:yup: This is a non-issue a my parish too. Males only has been the norm and will continue to be the norm. I have never heard of any mother, teen girl, or little girl in my parish claiming they want to be altar servers. Mine is a very traditional parish. I know of at least 4 other parishes in my city where the norm is and will continue to be males only. Matter of fact, we have little boys as young as six that serve, all the way up to college men and older men. The little boys start at “boat boy”, then when they get older they move up to “torch”, then to “crucifer” and then the older high school, college, and beyond will be “thurifer” as it involves lighting the charcoal. This is just my own opinion for what its worth, but if fathers would take the initiative and talk to their young boys about how wonderful it is to serve God as an altar boy, get other young boys involved and continue from elementary through high school, there would be an abundance of boys that girls would not be needed as altar servers. I personally feel the parents are to blame for this change. Fathers at times want their boys to grow up to be “muy macho” and fear that if one of their sons wants to become a priest, then their name will not be carried on. They should set the example and volunteer to serve and get their sons to serve. (I did this with my son and he is in college now and still serving. I’m not the only father in my parish that has taken this route.) They dont sit down and pray with their sons. Some mothers want equal treatment for their daughters and feel that if they are not allowed up on the altar, they are being discriminated. To me this has all the rings of the feminist movement. Yes I know that JPII has said it was OK, but I feel that this is something that will change. I feel that when that happens, we are going to see the true colors of the feminists. Sometimes the biggest complainers about girl altar servers are men. HEY YOU GUYS. GET OUT THERE AND DO SOMETHING. QUIT YOUR BELLY-ACHING. VOLUNTEER WITH YOUR SONS.

 

[netmilsmom]

:yup: This is a non-issue a my parish too. Males only has been the norm and will continue to be the norm. I have never heard of any mother, teen girl, or little girl in my parish claiming they want to be altar servers. Mine is a very traditional parish. I know of at least 4 other parishes in my city where the norm is and will continue to be males only. Matter of fact, we have little boys as young as six that serve, all the way up to college men and older men. The little boys start at “boat boy”, then when they get older they move up to “torch”, then to “crucifer” and then the older high school, college, and beyond will be “thurifer” as it involves lighting the charcoal. This is just my own opinion for what its worth, but if fathers would take the initiative and talk to their young boys about how wonderful it is to serve God as an altar boy, get other young boys involved and continue from elementary through high school, there would be an abundance of boys that girls would not be needed as altar servers. I personally feel the parents are to blame for this change. Fathers at times want their boys to grow up to be “muy macho” and fear that if one of their sons wants to become a priest, then their name will not be carried on. They should set the example and volunteer to serve and get their sons to serve. (I did this with my son and he is in college now and still serving. I’m not the only father in my parish that has taken this route.) They dont sit down and pray with their sons. Some mothers want equal treatment for their daughters and feel that if they are not allowed up on the altar, they are being discriminated. To me this has all the rings of the feminist movement. Yes I know that JPII has said it was OK, but I feel that this is something that will change. I feel that when that happens, we are going to see the true colors of the feminists. Sometimes the biggest complainers about girl altar servers are men. HEY YOU GUYS. GET OUT THERE AND DO SOMETHING. QUIT YOUR BELLY-ACHING. VOLUNTEER WITH YOUR SONS.

It’s the same in our parish.

Here is a question for anyone who can answer. Is there any requirements (like being unmarried) to being an Altar server? I would be so proud to see my hubby serving.

 

[G_S]

I certainly do not want to add to the heat but can’t resist a few thoughts.

When we had altar boys only, we had enough servers for Mass and devotions. Now that we have girls as well, we have very few servers. Part of this, at least, is because boys seem less than willing to serve with the girls. We have an almost all-girl squad. I think there are only three boys who serve. One serves with his father and sister. One serves with his sister. One serves while wearing earrings – not very common in our rural area. I suspect that there might be a tendancy in the male psyche to be perfectly willing to sit back and do nothing when others – whether the others are male or female --are willing to do it. Our choir leader began singing over sixty years ago – at age twelve. Everything was in Latin and the choir was all-male. It has been basically all-female for at least thirty years. A couple of guys will show up for Midnight Mass.

 

[TobyLue]

Here is a question for anyone who can answer. Is there any requirements (like being unmarried) to being an Altar server? I would be so proud to see my hubby serving.

Nope, none that I know of. Only that they should be Catholic. Be reverent, do things slowly, wear appropriate attire. If an alb or the cassock are not available avoid leisure attire, ie. shorts, tank tops, flip-flops etc. Remember, that many in the congregation look to the altar servers and act accordingly. Bow during the proper time at the creed, even if the priest doesnt. Bow or genuflect before receiving Our Lord, etc.

 

[netmilsmom]

TobyLue:

Nope, none that I know of. Only that they should be Catholic. Be reverent, do things slowly, wear appropriate attire. If an alb or the cassock are not available avoid leisure attire, ie. shorts, tank tops, flip-flops etc. Remember, that many in the congregation look to the altar servers and act accordingly. Bow during the proper time at the creed, even if the priest doesnt. Bow or genuflect before receiving Our Lord, etc.

Thanks!

 

[MrS]

My dad served at weekday Masses for years before he went home. The men (seniors!!!) wore a simple off-white cassock.

As much as he enjoyed serving, I was a bit uneasy with them being referred to as the “apostles” instead of altar servers.

So, single/married was not an issue there (Sacred Heart in Dearborn)… and yes he WAS married (to my mom for 57 years)

 

[AltarMan]

Catholic2003:

The low opinion part comes in when you assume that Pope Benedict XVI would fail to do the right thing merely because of possible (or even likely) dissent.

Wrong.

The current Pope is essentially still an unknown quantity, although there are some hints that he is a more capable and more serious administrator than was Pope JPII.

There’s absolutely no question that dissent and abuse played a large part in the 1994 responsum. * If simply would have been too easy to make it clear in the CCL that women were allowed to serve at the altar.* In fact, if one reads the original (Latin) version of the 1983 CCL, the reverse is quite clear.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I’m a female who’s not too fond of the feminist movement and I’m all for traditional ways, especially when it comes to the Catholic Church.
That’s just my :twocents:

:yup: This is a non-issue a my parish too. Males only has been the norm and will continue to be the norm. I have never heard of any mother, teen girl, or little girl in my parish claiming they want to be altar servers. Mine is a very traditional parish. I know of at least 4 other parishes in my city where the norm is and will continue to be males only. Matter of fact, we have little boys as young as six that serve, all the way up to college men and older men. The little boys start at “boat boy”, then when they get older they move up to “torch”, then to “crucifer” and then the older high school, college, and beyond will be “thurifer” as it involves lighting the charcoal. This is just my own opinion for what its worth, but if fathers would take the initiative and talk to their young boys about how wonderful it is to serve God as an altar boy, get other young boys involved and continue from elementary through high school, there would be an abundance of boys that girls would not be needed as altar servers. I personally feel the parents are to blame for this change. Fathers at times want their boys to grow up to be “muy macho” and fear that if one of their sons wants to become a priest, then their name will not be carried on. They should set the example and volunteer to serve and get their sons to serve. (I did this with my son and he is in college now and still serving. I’m not the only father in my parish that has taken this route.) They dont sit down and pray with their sons. Some mothers want equal treatment for their daughters and feel that if they are not allowed up on the altar, they are being discriminated. To me this has all the rings of the feminist movement. Yes I know that JPII has said it was OK, but I feel that this is something that will change. I feel that when that happens, we are going to see the true colors of the feminists. Sometimes the biggest complainers about girl altar servers are men. HEY YOU GUYS. GET OUT THERE AND DO SOMETHING. QUIT YOUR BELLY-ACHING. VOLUNTEER WITH YOUR SONS.

 

[AltarMan]

:yup: This is a non-issue a my parish too. Males only has been the norm and will continue to be the norm. I have never heard of any mother, teen girl, or little girl in my parish claiming they want to be altar servers. Mine is a very traditional parish. I know of at least 4 other parishes in my city where the norm is and will continue to be males only. Matter of fact, we have little boys as young as six that serve, all the way up to college men and older men. The little boys start at “boat boy”, then when they get older they move up to “torch”, then to “crucifer” and then the older high school, college, and beyond will be “thurifer” as it involves lighting the charcoal. This is just my own opinion for what its worth, but if fathers would take the initiative and talk to their young boys about how wonderful it is to serve God as an altar boy, get other young boys involved and continue from elementary through high school, there would be an abundance of boys that girls would not be needed as altar servers. I personally feel the parents are to blame for this change. Fathers at times want their boys to grow up to be “muy macho” and fear that if one of their sons wants to become a priest, then their name will not be carried on. They should set the example and volunteer to serve and get their sons to serve. (I did this with my son and he is in college now and still serving. I’m not the only father in my parish that has taken this route.) They dont sit down and pray with their sons. Some mothers want equal treatment for their daughters and feel that if they are not allowed up on the altar, they are being discriminated. To me this has all the rings of the feminist movement. Yes I know that JPII has said it was OK, but I feel that this is something that will change. I feel that when that happens, we are going to see the true colors of the feminists. Sometimes the biggest complainers about girl altar servers are men. HEY YOU GUYS. GET OUT THERE AND DO SOMETHING. QUIT YOUR BELLY-ACHING. VOLUNTEER WITH YOUR SONS.

What a wonderful posting. Very accurate too. I must add however that there are some fairly nefarious forces working against having all-male altar servers.

Just look at this thread. The claws really come out when anything is suggested that might limit a woman’s presence in the sanctuary. After all there are a ton of women out there that are praying that one day they may become deacons. *(Just wait until that’s formally denied once and for all ala Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. It’s going to be harsh. I can almost sense the hatred and bitterness that will flow from the sexist/feminists…)
*

I look at my own parish. We have a great group of male altar servers at the Mass I attend. It’s been that way for some time. Now the woman who is now in charge of altar servers desperately strains to get females to serve at this Mass, often importing them from other Masses. The people in the pews don’t like it, the female servers are often scared (the younger ones) or offended by the rather cold reception they receive, yet the game goes on. If the reverse were true, it a man was struggling to use male-only servers he’d be quickly fired around here…

 

[Ham1]

AltarMan:

Wrong.

The current Pope is essentially still an unknown quantity, although there are some hints that he is a more capable and more serious administrator than was Pope JPII.

There’s absolutely no question that dissent and abuse played a large part in the 1994 responsum. * If simply would have been too easy to make it clear in the CCL that women were allowed to serve at the altar.* In fact, if one reads the original (Latin) version of the 1983 CCL, the reverse is quite clear.

And your evidence for this is???

Oh right, because you keep saying it. That’s a pretty serious charge that you’ve leveled against Pope John Paul II and the Holy See. It’s slanderous to make such an accusation and then only support it by claiming it’s “obvious.” You’ve created a nice little post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy to support your position.

I have to say trashing the name of a deceased holy Pope without offering proof is pretty low.

I noticed you never responded to my last post.

 

[Ham1]

AltarMan:

Just look at this thread. The claws really come out when anything is suggested that might limit a woman’s presence in the sanctuary. …

And by the way, the claws come out when someone makes baseless accusations against a deceased Pope and then refuses to back down even when his argument has been shredded.

For the record, I much prefer the tradition of male altar servers. And I have no interest in any type of feminist agenda.

 

[MrS]

Ham1:

I have to say trashing the name of a deceased holy Pope without offering proof is pretty low.

Give it a break… no one has “trashed” the name of Pope. He was a wonderful and holy man… but only Mary was perfect… and even She did not serve at the first Mass

 

[Ham1]

Catholic2003:

I’m sure Pope John Paul II had studied enough moral theology to know that the ends don’t justify the means.

Even if he had decided that the abuse of using altar girls had gone too far to be stopped (assuming the 1983 code didn’t allow them), he still wouldn’t have conspired to commit fraud; he would have promulgated an Apostolic Letter Motu Proprio, as he did the other time that he wanted to change canon law.

MrS,

Didn’t mean to disturb you, but as Catholic 2003 states above quite succinctly that making the accusation that the Responsum was “influenced” from the outside and not a genuine interpretation is essentially accusing the Pope and the Holy See of conspiring to commit fraud.

I agree that Mary was perfect. I am not on a crusade to bring women into the sanctuary. I just think we ought to respect the decisions of the Pope and the Holy See and not accuse them of fraud. Is that asking to much???

 

[netmilsmom]

Are Female Altar servers a matter of dogma from the Vatican?

 

[MrS]

Ham1:

MrS,

Didn’t mean to disturb you, but as Catholic 2003 states above quite succinctly that making the accusation that the Responsum was “influenced” from the outside and not a genuine interpretation is essentially accusing the Pope and the Holy See of conspiring to commit fraud.

I agree that Mary was perfect. I am not on a crusade to bring women into the sanctuary. I just think we ought to respect the decisions of the Pope and the Holy See and not accuse them of fraud. Is that asking to much???

rest easy… I am only disturbed when all 18 grandkids visit and are “active” at the same time
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/ca...smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_1_216.gif

I agree… the “decision” of the last pope came after the innovation began.

I think the “decision” of the current Pope could be on his own initiative - perhaps with only a strong suggestion that we re-adhere to the all male servers. I can hope, can’t I?

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Are Female Altar servers a matter of dogma from the Vatican?

No. It is a matter of discipline, of rules which can be changed or modified.