Girls as alter servers

[Dr.Bombay]

Ham1:

MrS,

Didn’t mean to disturb you, but as Catholic 2003 states above quite succinctly that making the accusation that the Responsum was “influenced” from the outside and not a genuine interpretation is essentially accusing the Pope and the Holy See of conspiring to commit fraud.

I agree that Mary was perfect. I am not on a crusade to bring women into the sanctuary. I just think we ought to respect the decisions of the Pope and the Holy See and not accuse them of fraud. Is that asking to much???

Why is that an “accusation of fraud” against the Holy See? Perhaps the Pope, in his wisdom, saw that the use of girl altar boys was already widespread and, with pastoral sensitivity, decided to regularize the abuse instead of allowing thousands of priests (knowingly) and little girls (unknowingly) to persist in outright disobedience and defiance.

This is certainly an outside influence, but not the nefarious conspiracy you appear to be accusing others of concocting. As I’ve said before, a rule that is widely ignored is as worthless as if it had never been written. The Pope made a pastoral decision based on the evidence he had available. He did not commit fraud nor is anyone accusing him of such.

 

[maryalene]

AltarMan:

Just look at this thread. The claws really come out when anything is suggested that might limit a woman’s presence in the sanctuary. After all there are a ton of women out there that are praying that one day they may become deacons. (Just wait until that’s formally denied once and for all ala Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. It’s going to be harsh. I can almost sense the hatred and bitterness that will flow from the sexist/feminists…)

I can’t speak for the other posters, but personally my “claws” came out after reading some of the replies which implied that the only girls who would serve are sexist/feminists or who have been pushed into serving by their sexist/feminist mothers who are desperately hoping for deaconesses and priestesses. As a former altar server, I find those replies highly offensive. I’m also a bit surprised by the lack of charity exhibited in this thread. I have to keep checking to be sure that I am actually on a Catholic board. Maybe we should all say a prayer for humility tonight.

 

[George_Waters]

maryalene:

I can’t speak for the other posters, but personally my “claws” came out after reading some of the replies which implied that the only girls who would serve are sexist/feminists or who have been pushed into serving by their sexist/feminist mothers who are desperately hoping for deaconesses and priestesses. As a former altar server, I find those replies highly offensive. I’m also a bit surprised by the lack of charity exhibited in this thread. I have to keep checking to be sure that I am actually on a Catholic board. Maybe we should all say a prayer for humility tonight.

I agree with maryalene we should all talk less and pray more. The you-are-with-us-or-against-us and judgemental attitudes displayed on this thread are most un-Christian . We need to look at others through the eyes of God and not our own sinful eyes. No, I am not be forced to read this thread, I guess it is like people who look at car wrecks, a sick fascination…

God Bless.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

George Waters:

I agree with maryalene we should all talk less and pray more. The you-are-with-us-or-against-us and judgemental attitudes displayed on this thread are most un-Christian . We need to look at others through the eyes of God and not our own sinful eyes. No, I am not be forced to read this thread, I guess it is like people who look at car wrecks, a sick fascination…

God Bless.

Odd that you would accuse the Founder of Christianity of having an un-Christian attitude…

“He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.” --Our Lord Jesus Christ, as quoted in *Matthew 12:30


*

 

[Leisa]

I’ve been looking over this whole thread…
Hmmmm…
Differences of opinion. Isn’t that how protestant religions got started?

God bless everyone.

 

[Morning_Glory]

**I was asked (many eons ago) to be an altar server by my priest, because:

1. No boys were volunteering.
2. I was showing up for weekday Mass anyway.
3. Father was able to concentrate on the Mass instead of running back and forth to prepare for the consecration.

I was happy to serve because I was needed. Even at that young age, I was not part, nor my mother, of the feminist agenda. I always believed that men would be priests and women would be nuns. Never as an altar server did I think I would become a priest or a deacon.

When not serving, I was asked to do the readings. Father made me feel that I was serving the church to the best of my abilities at the time. I will forever be grateful.**

 

[MrS]

Leisa:

I’ve been looking over this whole thread…
Hmmmm…
Differences of opinion. Isn’t that how protestant religions got started?

God bless everyone.

… actually, I think it was more of a problem and lack of understanding of Catholic traditions… indulgenges and such.

Luther should have tried to reform from within (kinda like what we hope to accomplish here on CAF :bounce: ), instead of being arrogant and rejecting his vow of celebacy.

hhmmmmm… by marrying a nun, was he among the first who brought a woman into his sanctuary??:whacky:

 

[AltarMan]

**I was asked (many eons ago) to be an altar server by my priest, because:

1. No boys were volunteering.**
2. I was showing up for weekday Mass anyway.
3. Father was able to concentrate on the Mass instead of running back and forth to prepare for the consecration.

I was happy to serve because I was needed. Even at that young age, I was not part, nor my mother, of the feminist agenda. I always believed that men would be priests and women would be nuns. Never as an altar server did I think I would become a priest or a deacon.

When not serving, I was asked to do the readings. Father made me feel that I was serving the church to the best of my abilities at the time. I will forever be grateful.

Maybe someone actually needed to make an effort to recruit altar boys?

 

[Catholic2003]

Dr. Bombay:

Why is that an “accusation of fraud” against the Holy See? Perhaps the Pope, in his wisdom, saw that the use of girl altar boys was already widespread and, with pastoral sensitivity, decided to regularize the abuse instead of allowing thousands of priests (knowingly) and little girls (unknowingly) to persist in outright disobedience and defiance.

Read post #342 for a detailed explanation. Basically, if the 1983 Code of Canon Law didn’t already allow altar girls, then the PCILT and Pope John Paul II lied when they issued the 1992 authentic interpretation.
Dr. Bombay:

This is certainly an outside influence, but not the nefarious conspiracy you appear to be accusing others of concocting. As I’ve said before, a rule that is widely ignored is as worthless as if it had never been written. The Pope made a pastoral decision based on the evidence he had available. He did not commit fraud nor is anyone accusing him of such.

Perhaps then you can show me in the Catechism where lying is okay as long as it is a “pastoral decision”.

Remember what people had to tell President Clinton about the Monica scandal: “it’s not the adultery; it’s the perjury!”

Well, here it’s not the “caving in”, it’s the lying about it.

 

[davy39]

1.) Who is forcing you to read the thread? LOL!

2.) So? Why add to the beating in that case?

3.) It’s garbage.

4.) Begin by working on your statistics.

1.Nobody! I was just replying to your reply. 2. I was just giving my opinion, or is yours the only one that matters? . 3. (Old saying) Garbage is in the eye of the beholder. 4. Don’t tell me about statistics. Tell my parish priest. Have a nice day.

 

[George_Waters]

Dr. Bombay:

Odd that you would accuse the Founder of Christianity of having an un-Christian attitude…

“He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.” --Our Lord Jesus Christ, as quoted in *Matthew 12:30


*

I said no such thing. What is odd is that you think “us” equals “me”. I said; **“The you-are-with-us-or-against-us and judgmental attitudes displayed on this thread are most un-Christian.” ** So, unless Jesus is posting on this thread your comment seems nothing more than a sophomoric joke and appears to be an attempt to bolster your own opinion by making misleading statements about someone else. I think you are smart enough to see that a very negative attitude of others has been somewhat pervasive on several posts and questioning another’s beliefs and motivations without having intimate knowledge of that person is not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were simply trying to lighten the mood.

 

[George_Waters]

AltarMan:

Maybe someone actually needed to make an effort to recruit altar boys?

AlterMan,

In all seriousness have you considered creating a program to promote service at the alter for boys? You do have a passion for this. I think a positive program to encourage boys to become priests would be of great service to the church and would be well received in many or most dioceses.

We have girls who serve at the alter in my parish and in my experience they do a very good job, however they will not be priests and we will need all the good priests we can get in the future.

The Boy Scouts of America have the Explorer program for kids who want to go into certain professional areas. Why not have one for boys who may want to be priests?

Just a thought.

 

[AltarMan]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

But I feel that more than the feminist agenda pushing the idea of Altar Girls, it has now moved to parents. Those that state that his/her daughter loves it and now has an important place in the liturgy, I am actually offended by.

It belittles my girls and THEIR place in the liturgy. That is a shame. Just as a nun is not a priest, in the past the nuns were equally as important. It’s like saying that a Dad is more important than a Mom. That is just not true. Both equally are important in the life of a child. Our nuns “rocked the cradle” of Catholics. The priests were more distant from our everyday life but our shepherds. Both were equally important to life as a whole, just in different ways.

However some lay women did not see it that way and nuns have been marginalized.

Thank Goodness the “habited” nuns are making a comeback. God Love every one of them.

You make some very good points. Just take a look at this thread. Question how good/wise (NOT whether or not the Church approves of the practice) and the claws really come out – both from mommy and daddy. Forget about the Mass and God’s Son! My kids come first!

There has been more than one thread focused on this topic. The crying rant used to be “if females did not serve, no one would.” Thankfully most people now realize how bogus that excuse is. If such a state honestly exists (which is usually a product of using altar girls) take the time to recruit and train some altar boys!

 

[AltarMan]

MrS:

Give it a break… no one has “trashed” the name of Pope. He was a wonderful and holy man… but only Mary was perfect… and even She did not serve at the first Mass

Yeah!

 

[netmilsmom]

George Waters:

The Boy Scouts of America have the Explorer program for kids who want to go into certain professional areas. Why not have one for boys who may want to be priests?

Just a thought.

The BS might already…
**Religious Aspects: ** Being sponsored by a religious organization, we are focused on offering the religious awards program. We have trained counselors for the Catholic Religious Award programs. We offer these programs not only for Scouts from our Troop, but for all Catholic Scouts in our area.

We target annually that we strive to earn the Pope Paul IV award from the Catholic Committee on Scouting. We have been previously awarded in 1995 and in 1999 the Bishops Trophy and in 1996 the Chaplain’s Trophy from the Atlanta Archdiocese Catholic Committee on Scouting.

This year we have two Scouts that have earned the Ad Altare Dei award and two Scouts that earned the Pope Pius XII award. We emphasize that Scouts of other faiths, also work to earn the Religious Awards of their own faith. In 2004 we have three Scouts that have earned their God & Church Award, and one that earned his Ner Tamid award. In recognition for our efforts in the religious area and overall in our Scouting program, we were again recognized with the Bishop’s Trophy for 2004.

---

 

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

. If such a state honestly exists (which is usually a product of using altar girls) take the time to recruit and train some altar boys!

 

[AltarMan]

George Waters:

AlterMan,

In all seriousness have you considered creating a program to promote service at the alter for boys? You do have a passion for this. I think a positive program to encourage boys to become priests would be of great service to the church and would be well received in many or most dioceses…Just a thought.

In a word, no. I agree it’s a good idea though.

The altar server “program” is now “administered” by a laywoman. It seems they needed to cobble-together enough tasks to create a paying position and this is now on her plate. Now that it’s part of someone’s turf, God help the person who offered to volunteer.

This woman does a horrible job by any measure but now she’s part of the click. She has neither the knowledge nor the respect of others to do a good job. She’s the one that tried to ban me from being a server because I kneel during the consecration. She’s the one who successfully turned-off a 24 year old male grad student that I had fully trained to serve (she demanded he also stand and he said “no” and backed out.)

My parish is pastor-less right now (our last pastor was relieved of his duties after a year.) When we get a new pastor I will ask him for permission to train 1-2 new male servers at a time (there is plenty of interest) and see what he says.

 

[MrS]

George Waters:

The Boy Scouts of America have the Explorer program for kids who want to go into certain professional areas. Why not have one for boys who may want to be priests?

Just a thought.

We were going to have one… but the girls took all the slots.

sorry… had to release the brat-child (male) in me.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Catholic2003:

Read post #342 for a detailed explanation. Basically, if the 1983 Code of Canon Law didn’t already allow altar girls, then the PCILT and Pope John Paul II lied when they issued the 1992 authentic interpretation.

Perhaps then you can show me in the Catechism where lying is okay as long as it is a “pastoral decision”.

Remember what people had to tell President Clinton about the Monica scandal: “it’s not the adultery; it’s the perjury!”

Well, here it’s not the “caving in”, it’s the lying about it.

I don’t believe nor am I implying that there was any lying involved. The Holy Father was exercising his power of the keys to bind (or in this case, loose). It was a pastoral decision, fully within his authority to make. The reason he made that decision, I think, is obvious: To regularize a widespread abuse.

The fact is, the Pope is not required to provide any reason for his decisions. It’s perfectly fine for him to interpret the '83 Code to allow girl altar boys. Just as it’s fine for a future Pontiff to deny such an interpretation.

And no one has yet answered my question: Under what authority was my pastor using girl altar boys in the late 70s, long before the '83 Code?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

George Waters:

I said no such thing. What is odd is that you think “us” equals “me”. I said; **“The you-are-with-us-or-against-us and judgmental attitudes displayed on this thread are most un-Christian.” ** So, unless Jesus is posting on this thread your comment seems nothing more than a sophomoric joke and appears to be an attempt to bolster your own opinion by making misleading statements about someone else. I think you are smart enough to see that a very negative attitude of others has been somewhat pervasive on several posts and questioning another’s beliefs and motivations without having intimate knowledge of that person is not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were simply trying to lighten the mood.

Me, attempt to lighten the mood? How dare you suggest such a thing!