Give me advice.

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WesleyF

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Since the last few days, I was having a discussion with a Protestant on Facebook. I don’t know him. We were discussing whether God desires all to be saved or not. He took the position that God predestines some people to hell whereas I argued against that position. For every verse that he brought to the table, I gave a very sound rebuttal. Finally, when he couldn’t respond to my rebuttals, he said things like “you will not accept who the God of the Bible is”… “you are trying to impose your theology onto scripture.” When I read that for the first time, I was angered and felt like telling him the same thing, but being reminded of the verse that tells us to correct opponents with gentleness (2 Tim 2:25), I controlled myself and responded gently, once again asking him questions and trying to reason with him.

But that didn’t work. He then proceeded to tell the third person who was involved in the discussion that there was no point wasting time on me, because I was forcing my theology onto scripture. I happened to be online at the time he did this and I couldn’t take it any more. I then criticized him and told him that he did the same things he accused me of - imposing his theology onto scripture. That led to some further pointless argument over irrelevant issues and then he proceeded to call me a fool and other such condescending words at which point I took offense and told him that he was being proud and should not show such condescending attitude. That led to even more insults from him. Throughout the whole ordeal, I didn’t insult him even once.

But I feel like I failed. I failed to keep my cool and follow the advice of scripture to be gentle with opponents. But how much should one endure?
 
Hey, brother, worry not.
Arguing of trivial worldly things is harldy a good thing in the eyes of God. Religion, however, is a differnt story. There have been many righteous arguments over Religion over time. You are witnessing to these people. It frustrates you because they don’t accept your faith. Say a prayer for them and their souls. You seemed like you tryed to stay calm. Jesus even got angry, such as when he tipped over the tables of those preying upon the poor in front of the Temple. God wants his word spread. You did the right thing, but try to keep calm in God’s honor. Remember, WWJD! :signofcross:
 
WesleyF said:
Since the last few days, I was having a discussion with a Protestant on Facebook. I don’t know him. We were discussing whether God desires all to be saved or not. He took the position that God predestines some people to hell whereas I argued against that position. For every verse that he brought to the table, I gave a very sound rebuttal. Finally, when he couldn’t respond to my rebuttals, he said things like “you will not accept who the God of the Bible is”… “you are trying to impose your theology onto scripture.” When I read that for the first time, I was angered and felt like telling him the same thing, but being reminded of the verse that tells us to correct opponents with gentleness (2 Tim 2:25), I controlled myself and responded gently, once again asking him questions and trying to reason with him.

But that didn’t work. He then proceeded to tell the third person who was involved in the discussion that there was no point wasting time on me, because I was forcing my theology onto scripture. I happened to be online at the time he did this and I couldn’t take it any more. I then criticized him and told him that he did the same things he accused me of - imposing his theology onto scripture. That led to some further pointless argument over irrelevant issues and then he proceeded to call me a fool and other such condescending words at which point I took offense and told him that he was being proud and should not show such condescending attitude. That led to even more insults from him. Throughout the whole ordeal, I didn’t insult him even once.

But I feel like I failed. I failed to keep my cool and follow the advice of scripture to be gentle with opponents. But how much should one endure?
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  Jesus Christ died so that all who accept Him as Lord and follow Him may enter into the Kingdom and Patience of Jesus Christ.  God never created any creature just to populate Hell.  However,  God knows  who will Save themselves by accepting the Blood of the Lamb to wash away sin. 

     We all have free wills to choose God or to reject Him.   To me, predestination in the manner some describe
 
How is it your peace is so easily disturbed? Shouldn’t you rejoice as you suffer for the Lord?

Ephesians 3:14 This, then, is what I pray, kneeling before the Father, 15 from whom every fatherhood, in heaven or on earth, takes its name. 16 In the abundance of his glory may he, through his Spirit, enable you to grow firm in power with regard to your inner self, 17 so that Christ may live in your hearts through faith, and then, planted in love and built on love, 18 with all God’s holy people you will have the strength to grasp the breadth and the length, the height and the depth;19 so that, knowing the love of Christ, which is beyond knowledge, you may be filled with the utter fullness of God.

Words and Prayers of St. Isaac the Syrian

Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.
Be crucified, but do not crucify others.
Be slandered, but do not slander others.
Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep: such is the sign of purity.
Suffer with the sick.
Be afflicted with sinners.
Exult with those who repent.
Be the friend of all, but in your spirit remain alone.
Be a partaker of the sufferings of all, but keep your body distant from all.
Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly.
Spread your cloak over those who fall into sin, each and every one, and shield them.
And if you cannot take the fault on yourself and accept punishment in their place,
do not destroy their character.

peace
 
I can’t even “keep my cool” with dissenting Catholics.

Evangelizing protestants in so far off in the horizon for me. I’d need a telescope to find that land.

That being said, it’s encouraging to remember that St. Paul often got a “whooping” in his attempts to evangelize people.

He said he learned to become the “every man”.
 
This ought to l shed Light on Predestination for your friend:

Link to Ask an Apologist in this forum where Peggy Frye addresses Predestination

On predestination, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (no. 600) says the following:

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.” Mt 26:54; Jn 18:36; 19:11; Acts 3:17-18.

“It is an article of faith that God knows all things, including any kind of future events whatever (Vatican Council, sess. 3). St. Augustine, in De Civitate Dei, 5,9, affirms: “Who does not know in anticipation all future things surely is not God.” 3) The mode of manner according to which God knows the future is mysterious and draws its particular difficulty from the general difficulty of the relationship between the Infinite and finite, eternity and time.“
Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology pp. 221-222 by Msgrs. Pietro Parente, A. Piolanti, S. Garofalo

On Freedom of the Will the Catechism no. 1730 says, "God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him "

323 Divine providence works also through the actions of creatures. To human beings God grants the ability to cooperate freely with his plans. (ibid)

For a detailed treatment of this very complex subject, I recommend the following:

St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica on Predestination
newadvent.org/summa/102300.htm

Grace, Free Will, & Predestination
cin.org/users/james/files/files.htm

Book: Salvation Controversy Jimmy Akin
shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/S…html?E+scstore

Many good articles on Free Will & Predestination
monksofadoration.org/freewill.html

Divine Providence is not inconsistent with Freedom of the Will:
nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc3_73.htm

Many excellent articles on free will: Summa Contra Gentiles of Saint Thos Aquinas
nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc.htm
 
hazcompat said:
How is it your peace is so easily disturbed? Shouldn’t you rejoice as you suffer for the Lord?

Ephesians 3:14 This, then, is what I pray, kneeling before the Father, 15 from whom every fatherhood, in heaven or on earth, takes its name. 16 In the abundance of his glory may he, through his Spirit, enable you to grow firm in power with regard to your inner self, 17 so that Christ may live in your hearts through faith, and then, planted in love and built on love, 18 with all God’s holy people you will have the strength to grasp the breadth and the length, the height and the depth;19 so that, knowing the love of Christ, which is beyond knowledge, you may be filled with the utter fullness of God.

Words and Prayers of St. Isaac the Syrian

Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.
Be crucified, but do not crucify others.
Be slandered, but do not slander others.
Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep: such is the sign of purity.
Suffer with the sick.
Be afflicted with sinners.
Exult with those who repent.
Be the friend of all, but in your spirit remain alone.
Be a partaker of the sufferings of all, but keep your body distant from all.
Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly.
Spread your cloak over those who fall into sin, each and every one, and shield them.
And if you cannot take the fault on yourself and accept punishment in their place,
do not destroy their character.

peace
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So you’re saying that I should rejoice because I am granted a share in the sufferings of Christ?
 
WesleyF said:
But I feel like I failed. I failed to keep my cool and follow the advice of scripture to be gentle with opponents. But how much should one endure?
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It happens. Maybe you planted a seed which will eventually bear fruit. Not all such things take root immediately.

I’ve had more or less exactly the same thing happen (occasionally a different topic, but the same sort of back and forth). When it degenerates into insults and baseless accusations of imposing theology on Scripture or the like, the best I’ve been able to do is point out that they’re baseless and then, if they don’t stop, to say that I’d be more than happy to continue the discussion some other time when they’re willing to debate rather than insult.

That’s the best, mind you, and I don’t think it’s very good. (The worst involved quiet a bit more sarcasm than I really should have used.) I’d love to hear a better way of handling it if anyone has one.
 
Arguing with people you don’t know over the internet seldom results in good fruit. 😉

If someone is so passionate about their religious beliefs that they actually want to surf the internet for opportunities to share those beliefs with others, they are probably not the type to be swayed by argumentation, even if your arguments are logical and theirs are fallacious. (I know that there is no argument or prooftext that I could encounter on the internet that would make me doubt my Catholic faith, so I imagine others probably feel similarly with regards to their beliefs.)

I think the best you can do is to not respond in kind if the discussion turns sour. That witness can break through when words fail.

I don’t see how pointing out his double standard when it comes to who is “imposing theology onto Scripture” is uncharitable (though I can imagine how one might phrase the sentiment uncharitably :p). Not seeing the whole exchange, I obviously do not know, but even if you feel like you lost your cool, just try to learn from it and move forward.

It’s good that you didn’t sink to hurling personal insults. I simply do not understand how a Christian could not immediately notice the irony of preaching the salvation won for us by Christ while resorting to petty name-calling. 🤷
 
Sometimes doing the right thing doesn’t make you feel great. And from you have been sharing I gathered that you have walked the extra mile with this fellow. All you can do now is to keep on praying for him. He reacted this way because he was wrong and knew it and then he kept on reacting because he felt guilty. May God bless you!
 
WesleyF said:
Since the last few days," I was having a discussion with a Protestant on Facebook."When temptation to “return the favor” rears it’s ugly head, (in this case, the rude Protestant), I remember that Catholicism became a world religion because of the examples of grace shown by the early Christians. Jesus could have turned around during his flogging and showed them all His wrath. Remember, He did that willingly, He was no one’s prisoner. He didn’t come to show wrath, but mercy. He turned the other cheek; he forgave. One reason God came was to show us how to behave as Christians.
I admire those most, who, without thinking, forgive. Instantly forgive. That’s it; no strings attached. When the last Holy Father was shot, what did he do? He visited the man who caused him so much pain. To set that example and forgive. He didn’t do it for glory. He did it as an example to us all and, I would assume, to put the man’s mind at ease and convert him. Of course we cannot all be expected to succeed at such high standards, that’s the beauty of being Catholic. We can be forgiven and do penance. We are taught at every mass, how to get back on the road when we wander.

Forgive yourself and forgive him. In my experience, warring believers of other faiths cannot be changed. Their mind wont allow it. They let nothing in. I try to say “stick to tolerance in all faiths who love God”. The best way to win them over is through example. That person presented a poor representation of their faith.
God bless…and please pray for him. He is not you’re antagonist, unless you want him to be. He could be your concentration of prayers for the conversion of sinners.

Hope that helps.
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this is what I try to remember: In Scripture it says to have an explanation ready for your Faith. So I try to remeber to explain, but stop before I get into arguing. If they ask a reasonable question about what I have said, then of course I answer it. But if they try to refute me, I just say, this is how the Church (or I) arrived at this conclusion. We have different foundations for our thinking so we may not arrive at the same conclusion, and I may have explained badly, but that is the best I can do. And leave it at that.

Like I said, I don’t always remeber this, but it helps a lot when I do!
 
Luke 2:19 And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart.

peace
 
He’s a Calvinist, you’re a Catholic. Be charitable in truth. But don’t expect to win him. Sometimes these positions are never resolved. Else the Church would be fuller and Protestantism would be less well-attended. 😉
 
He became abusive because he was losing the argument and sought to play the man instead of playing the ball in a vain - and underhand - attempt to ‘win’.

I think you can rest satisfied that you did all you could - I’d say you probably went beyond the call of duty. You have shown him the light of the truth as best you could and it is now up to him to accept it.

Do not allow this to perturb you any more.
 
St. Francis De Sales

“Do everything calmly and peacefully. Do as much as you can as well as you can. Strive to see God in all things without exception, and consent to His will joyously. Do everything for God, uniting yourself to him in word and deed. Walk very simply with the Cross of the Lord and be at peace with yourself.”

peace
 
hazcompat said:
How is it your peace is so easily disturbed? Shouldn’t you rejoice as you suffer for the Lord?

Ephesians 3:14 This, then, is what I pray, kneeling before the Father, 15 from whom every fatherhood, in heaven or on earth, takes its name. 16 In the abundance of his glory may he, through his Spirit, enable you to grow firm in power with regard to your inner self, 17 so that Christ may live in your hearts through faith, and then, planted in love and built on love, 18 with all God’s holy people you will have the strength to grasp the breadth and the length, the height and the depth;19 so that, knowing the love of Christ, which is beyond knowledge, you may be filled with the utter fullness of God.

Words and Prayers of St. Isaac the Syrian

Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.
Be crucified, but do not crucify others.
Be slandered, but do not slander others.
Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep: such is the sign of purity.
Suffer with the sick.
Be afflicted with sinners.
Exult with those who repent.
Be the friend of all, but in your spirit remain alone.
Be a partaker of the sufferings of all, but keep your body distant from all.
Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly.
Spread your cloak over those who fall into sin, each and every one, and shield them.
And if you cannot take the fault on yourself and accept punishment in their place,
do not destroy their character.

peace
Click to expand...
AMEN!
 
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