Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[Randy_Carson]

Next argument… On the forums, we share only words, written arguments, but at Councils, heretics were persuaded not only with words, but even with the fact that Orthodox bishops were looking like Saints. For example, at the First Ecumenical Council, there was an episode when one heretic said that he was persuaded with the fact that one bishop was looking like a Saint. So look at our former Orthodox Russian Patriarch Alexy II – and you will see that he looks like a Saint: youtube.com/watch?v=eaFtMK6VT4I

Yes, Catholics know what a saint looks like.

 

[Randy_Carson]

lol, welcome to my ignore list, lol

Can I be on it, too?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Then is the position of the Catholic Church that I am free as a Catholic to not believe in it and still attain salvation? (I do believe in the assumption, just in case you are wondering)

Here’s the issue:
After much deliberation and rumination, and prayer, the Church has seen how rejection of certain truths can lead to a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ and His Incarnation. This misunderstanding can lead to theological errors which could affect the salvation of the adherent and/or others who the adherent teaches.

That is why, even though a truth has always been believed, it must be stated with certainly and authority.

IOW, the Church sees her children wandering off into the weeds (poison ivy), and notices that, even though everyone always knew to stay out of those weeds even when it wasn’t explicitly stated, that an explicit rule needs to be made.

In the past, those who may have “checked out” those weeds knew enough to stay away from the poison ivy, but the new rules are made since poison ivy rashes have been noticed.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You know the answer to that. What happens when we begin to let people pick and choose which parts of the faith we believe? And who would decide that? Isn’t that the path that Protestants have followed and which has led to thousands of denominations?.

Hold your horses.

Thomism, Molinism, neither? We are free to believe on or the other. Is that the cause?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Next argument… On the forums, we share only words, written arguments, but at Councils, heretics were persuaded not only with words, but even with the fact that Orthodox bishops were looking like Saints. For example, at the First Ecumenical Council, there was an episode when one heretic said that he was persuaded with the fact that one bishop was looking like a Saint. So look at our former Orthodox Russian Patriarch Alexy II – and you will see that he looks like a Saint: youtube.com/watch?v=eaFtMK6VT4I

Catholics know what saints look like, too.

 

[schaeffer]

For non-Catholics: Why are you non-Catholic and what, in your opinion, is the biggest strength of the Catholic Church?

I’m “non Catholic” because I am part of a different faith who’s teachings I hold to be true.

I think the biggest strengths of the Catholic church are morality and ritual.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Here’s the issue:
After much deliberation and rumination, and prayer, the Church has seen how rejection of certain truths can lead to a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ and His Incarnation. This misunderstanding can lead to theological errors which could affect the salvation of the adherent and/or others who the adherent teaches.

That is why, even though a truth has always been believed, it must be stated with certainly and authority.

IOW, the Church sees her children wandering off into the weeds (poison ivy), and notices that, even though everyone always knew to stay out of those weeds even when it wasn’t explicitly stated, that an explicit rule needs to be made.

In the past, those who may have “checked out” those weeds knew enough to stay away from the poison ivy, but the new rules are made since poison ivy rashes have been noticed.

A well thought out answer, thank you.

But that still doesn’t really explain how it helps preserve the work of Christ.

I assent to the teaching because it is fitting. There is enough patristic material to hold the view.

But I still not see why it is a requirement.

 

[Vadim244]

Yes, Catholics know what a saint looks like.

I think that Alexy II looks much better. Even a Roman Catholic Angelica Carpifave wrote a book recently with a series of her interviews with Alexy II. And she wrote that he was Saint in foreword. This is cover of this book:
http://www.inmondadori.it/img/Conve...a+e+di+tutte+le+Russie&aut=Angelica+Carpifave

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Can I be on it, too?

Oh no, you have much to suffer still.

Unless you put me on yours

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hold your horses.

Thomism, Molinism, neither? We are free to believe on or the other. I that the cause?

This is getting wearisome.

In the example you cite, the Church has not decided between these two positions.

In the examples of the dogmas with which you seem to take issue, the Church HAS decided.

Maybe I just need a nap. :yawn:

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Next argument… On the forums, we share only words, written arguments, but at Councils, heretics were persuaded not only with words, but even with the fact that Orthodox bishops were looking like Saints. For example, at the First Ecumenical Council, there was an episode when one heretic said that he was persuaded with the fact that one bishop was looking like a Saint. So look at our former Orthodox Russian Patriarch Alexy II – and you will see that he looks like a Saint: youtube.com/watch?v=eaFtMK6VT4I

What does a Saint look like?
You can tell a Saint by their appearance?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think that Alexy II looks much better. Even a Roman Catholic Angelica Carpifave wrote a book recently with a series of her interviews with Alexy II. And she wrote that he was Saint in foreword. This is cover of this book:
http://www.inmondadori.it/img/Conve...a+e+di+tutte+le+Russie&aut=Angelica+Carpifave

Peter Ustinov?

 

[Kliska]

What does a Saint look like?
You can tell a Saint by their appearance?

This is also confusing the non-liturgical protestant (me) reading the thread. I thought God warned us about external appearance?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

A well thought out answer, thank you.

You’re welcome.

But that still doesn’t really explain how it helps preserve the work of Christ.

The work of Christ – the work of His Body, the Church, is the salvation of all who desire God.

Let me give you an example: there were a variety of opinions on who or what Christ was.
Is He human?
Is He divine?
Does He have one nature, or two?
Does He have one will, or two?
etc., etc., etc.

Getting the answers wrong could lead to errors that would affect salvation.

So, at a ponderously slow rate, the Church answered those questions definitively.
Now, this didn’t end all theological speculation; it just kept them within boundaries intended to keep theologians from advocating heresy.

 

[clem456]

lol, welcome to my ignore list, lol

There’s a few posters that have been on your ignore list from the very start.
You get very clear answers from Catholics about Catholic questions and refuse to acknowledge what you are hearing. So it’s pointless.

 

[SteveVH]

I think that Alexy II looks much better. Even a Roman Catholic Angelica Carpifave wrote a book recently with a series of her interviews with Alexy II. And she wrote that he was Saint in foreword. This is cover of this book:
http://www.inmondadori.it/img/Conve...a+e+di+tutte+le+Russie&aut=Angelica+Carpifave

LOL. He looks exactly like a friend of mine, with a little longer beard. Can’t wait to tell him he “looks like a saint”. Thanks for this.

 

[SteveVH]

The work of Christ – the work of His Body, the Church, is the salvation of all who desire God.

Let me give you an example: there were a variety of opinions on who or what Christ was.
Is He human?
Is He divine?
Does He have one nature, or two?
Does He have one will, or two?
etc., etc., etc.

Getting the answers wrong could lead to errors that would affect salvation.

So, at a ponderously slow rate, the Church answered those questions definitively.
Now, this didn’t end all theological speculation; it just kept them within boundaries intended to keep theologians from advocating heresy.

Well said.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You know the answer to that.

Exactly my point. Let’s assume I don’t believe it or understand it. The Church says I have to believe it and I want to remain in communion, so what do I do? I say: Sure, I’ll believe it.

Do I really?

Not everything we believe is directly related to Calvary, is it?

Goodness gracious, do you know a Catholic that actually knows everything we believe? I’m still working on it.

But shouldn’t it be?

Jesus died on the cross. The fact that Mary is the Mother of God does not relate directly to that truth. But it does tell us something of who Jesus is, doesn’t it?

No problem with that. Not what I’m arguing.

Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.

I know

That is your opinion. Obviously, a lot of very learned people disagree.

You asked for my opinion, what did you expect?

However, could you give an example or two of theological developments which are acceptable?

Trinity, Scriptures, Liturgies, Nature of Christ.

Correct. Because Jesus said, “whatever you loose…bind”. Is there a limit implied in “whatever”?

Again my point. We took the [whatever] to its full extent… He did say “whatever” to the Apostles as well.

What happens when the whatevers collide?

Easy doesn’t mean that we won’t be challenged.

1 Peter 3:15

Easy doesn’t mean burden either.

Not offhand, but I haven’t run across anything in my 35 years of Catholicism that I disagree with so far.

So far… Hmmmm

It’s a COMMON argument, but I’m not particularly stressed when a non-Catholic has questions about the papacy. Like the game of chess, I know all my opponents opening moves better than he does.

I do play chess

That was a typo. And really? I just wanted to be sure. “All heretics want to be called Catholic.” St. Augustine

Augustine is wrong. Most heretics today don’t want to be called Catholic

We even have a few Anglicans and Lutherans around here claiming the name “Catholic”.

And some of these Anglicans and Lutherans are very Catholic indeed.

 

[Vadim244]

What does a Saint look like?
You can tell a Saint by their appearance?

Yes. [St. Anthony the Great said so:](The Philokalia Vol 1 - G.E.H. Palmer - Google книги %20kallistos%20volume%201&pg=PA488#v=onepage&q&f=false) “Holiness and intelligence of soul are to be recognized from a man’s eye, walk, voice, laugh, the way he spends his time and the company he keeps. Everything is transformed and reflects an inner beauty. For the intellect which enjoys the love of God is a watchful gate-keeper and bars entry to evil and defiling thoughts.”

 

[Vadim244]

LOL. He looks exactly like a friend of mine, with a little longer beard. Can’t wait to tell him he “looks like a saint”. Thanks for this.

I posted this image just to illustrate that this book about Alexy II was written by ROMAN CATHOLIC author. In order to see that he looks like a Saint, it’s better to watch a video, for example this one: youtube.com/watch?v=eaFtMK6VT4I