Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

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Sorry PRmerger, my post just sounded a bit confrontational. It must be the coffee. Although I do think the design needs work though - the imbalance, is the top-heaviness of the type. Sometimes I wonder if one’s faith can go the same way so I might start limiting my time on this forum.
 
PRmerger said:
Love it! If this were Facebook I’d click “Like!”
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Oh, I see. It is using irony. Sorry, I didn’t get that at first. So it is saying, that of course Jesus didn’t tell everyone the Bible is the only authority, for obvious reasons, and in this knowledge we see that it points to the authority for the R.C Church as well as Scripture. I understand now. 😊

But I suppose it does still misinform because people might think that Jesus did actually use those words, and don’t understand that Christian belief is not based on Sola Scriptura - if they didn’t get the irony, that is (?).
 
friardchips said:
Oh, I see. It is using irony. Sorry, I didn’t get that at first. So it is saying, that of course Jesus didn’t tell everyone the Bible is the only authority, for obvious reasons, and in this knowledge we see that it points to the authority for the R.C Church as well as Scripture. I understand now. 😊
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But I suppose it does still misinform because people might think that Jesus did actually use those words, and don’t understand that Christian belief is not based on Sola Scriptura - if they didn’t get the irony, that is (?).
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Well, I suppose some of the disciples might have objected to Christ’s use of parables, using your paradigm, yes?

They might have objected, telling Jesus the parables misinform because people might not understand that Jesus wasn’t really talking about prodigal sons running away and eating the slop of pigs–that it’s a metaphor for all of us, whether we’ve actually eaten pig food or not, no?
 


That woman looks to be very smug! 😃 Is that wine, beer or something stronger in that glass?
 
PRmerger said:
They might have objected, telling Jesus the parables misinform because people might not understand that Jesus wasn’t really talking about prodigal sons running away and eating the slop of pigs–that it’s a metaphor for all of us, whether we’ve actually eaten pig food or not, no?
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Quite. Only problem with this is, that the Scripture writers didn’t falsify what Jesus said (which is what we trust is the case), so the comparison is lacking a little. Must be the drink! 😃 A difference between Jesus using parables to make a point and a poster designer with typographic skills from before the middle-ages changing what Jesus said, for good or bad, is not a comparison. And Jesus didn’t put false words in people’s mouths, He proclaimed the Truth, at all times. Being ‘Truth incarnate’, one could say that doing anything different other than being truthful might have been exceedingly hard for Him.
 
friardchips said:
Quite. Only problem with this is, that the Scripture writers didn’t falsify what Jesus said (which is what we trust is the case), so the comparison is lacking a little. Must be the drink! 😃 A difference between Jesus using parables to make a point and a poster designer with typographic skills from before the middle-ages changing what Jesus said, for good or bad, is not a comparison. And Jesus didn’t put false words in people’s mouths, He proclaimed the Truth, at all times. Being ‘Truth incarnate’, one could say that doing anything different other than being truthful might have been exceedingly hard for Him.
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You are taking the comparison too far, friardchips.

The comparison is apropos here: if you say that we shouldn’t make assertions that people may misinterpret (and that is exactly what you’re saying), then poor Jesus is left without hardly a single teaching he could utter…for, sadly, lots o’ folks may not understand Our Lord’s point.

Taking it any farther than that misses the point.
 
PRmerger said:
You are taking the comparison too far, friardchips.

The comparison is apropos here: if you say that we shouldn’t make assertions that people may misinterpret (and that is exactly what you’re saying), then poor Jesus is left without hardly a single teaching he could utter…for, sadly, lots o’ folks may not understand Our Lord’s point.

Taking it any farther than that misses the point.
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Yes, but…maybe.

Btw…you didn’t spot the error in my post (!)
 
Randy_Carson said:
Kind of funny.
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I don’t know. I always think back to that horrid Monty Python film (before I was alive to the faith) and so any jokes at Jesus and I can’t find myself room for laughter. There’s too much of this stuff from hard-line atheists in movies and such-like for anything that distorts from a true image of Jesus to be considered acceptable. Furthermore, any disdain for Mary, and I feel like getting into serious Crusader mode. :knight2: 🙂
 
…in the meantime: the emoticon, admittedly, did not do the ‘serious crusader mode’ comment much justice…
  • (still waiting 🍿)
 
rcwitness said:
This topic of Marian doctrines and their “necessary belief” among Catholics deserves carefull attention. Does the Church actually Teach that belief in the doctrines of Mary as a requirement of salvation?

I think, as the Church has defined ‘dogmas’, that their relation to the foundation of the gospel is very relative. This may mean that one can definitely not “accept” as infallible the dogmas of Mary, yet still remain in God’s grace. It would become a matter of the heart and to what degree the person is merely “not accepting” as infallibly the Teaching from the Church.

No doubt the Church has made it authorative to a degree, but whether or not everyones ultimate salvation is dependent on believing these Marian doctrines, I would lean strongly in the direction that they are NOT.
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If I can weigh in (I know the thread has moved onward, but just a thought I had), from my perspective it just confuses me as to the assertion that the Marian dogmas are about Jesus… but you and I can believe all those things taught about Jesus that find root in the Marian dogmas… so why was it necessary to make them “Marian” dogmas? Why not more info about Jesus specifically, which is why I believe they first declared Mary Theotokos. I can wrap my protestant brain around that, but it it seems odd to tie salvation so closely to belonging to a Church that espouses certain beliefs and then mandate a certain belief about Mary alongside of Jesus. Honestly, it makes the potential journey to the Catholic church much harder (even when we are complete agreement about God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)) because it seems to shift the focus… or at least move the goal-post.
 
Kliska said:
If I can weigh in (I know the thread has moved onward, but just a thought I had), from my perspective it just confuses me as to the assertion that the Marian dogmas are about Jesus… but you and I can believe all those things taught about Jesus that find root in the Marian dogmas… so why was it necessary to make them “Marian” dogmas?
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(I think) they were responses to outside-Church issues in each era that they were declared. And because through the revealing of these Dogmas (certified truths), we can say, in a short and non-convoluted way, that these truths have come about through faith and reason and so can attribute the fact that the Holy Spirit reveals when the time is right and when God sees fit to reveal. Everything has its time and place.
Why not more info about Jesus specifically, which is why I believe they first declared Mary Theotokos. I can wrap my protestant brain around that, but it it seems odd to tie salvation so closely to belonging to a Church that espouses certain beliefs and then mandate a certain belief about Mary alongside of Jesus. Honestly, it makes the potential journey to the Catholic church much harder (even when we are complete agreement about God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)) because it seems to shift the focus… or at least move the goal-post.
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It is a good question. But ultimately Mary points to Jesus and through a more intimate relationship with Mary we enter more intimately into relationship with Jesus, reason being, that it is through the pondering memory of Our Lady that we know of much of the suffering of Jesus. And what more intimate relationship is there to enter into than the times shared between Mother and Son at His very birth, His first public miracle, and His death.
Just to say one small thing. Faith is always being comfortable with the facts.
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If one is uncomfortable then one must pray and trust. Popular culture seems to think, so it is a valid point, that religion, or life even, is an ego-massager for our minds, but this is not the case. God did not create us so we could have a jolly good Swedish Ego Massage, He made us so we could learn to trust Him and all that He reveals over time, through His creation. He invites and we choose to trust Him. And often trust is born of many trials. And these trials can be in the form of not understanding some facet of our faith.

Mary does hasten our journey to the Lord. Why would God not want us to be certain of this?

Now more than ever we can see, through the eyes of the media, the awful way women are treated around the world. So I for one think it is beautiful timing on God’s part for Our Lady to be acknowledged fully, now especially, as truly our amazing Mother in Heaven, and the surest way to Her Son. Our Morning Star!

🙂
 
rcwitness said:
This topic of Marian doctrines and their “necessary belief” among Catholics deserves carefull attention. Does the Church actually Teach that belief in the doctrines of Mary as a requirement of salvation?
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Yes. “There is no salvation outside the church”

In order to be in the Church, you must accept all dogmas and doctrines of the Church.

IOW, there is no salvation unless you accept them.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
“Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” St Jerome.
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And he was right … well, unless you take it in an absolute sense, which would make the early church ignorant of Christ up until they wrote stuff down! 🙂
 
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