Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[Randy_Carson]

If this was all it took, then your faith was on shaky ground long before you logged on.

Don’t blame those defending the faith for your lack thereof.

 

[PRmerger]

Can we still address the original question? If so, here are my answers:

1.Infallibility. To defend the infallibility of the Popes and Councils requires doing obviously and significant violence to their teaching. Yes, without a doubt, a Catholic apologist can show that these historical teachings are not (very) technically contradictory, but everyone in the discussion knows quite well that the sense of the teachings is often contradictory. EENS is the classic example. One is left to wonder if the Holt Spirit usually seems to work in excruciatingly small details and technicalities.

2.Contradictions. A famous modern apostate, Magdi Allam, said he left the Church because it ‘contained everything and the opposite of everything’. Indeed. It contains naturalism and occasionalism (diametrically opposed fundamental philosophies of causality). It contains contradictory theologies of God and theodicies. It contains moral contradictions, with some saints literally decrying as sin any sex not intending conception (Jerome) and other saints literally calling for sex aimed at mutual pleasure (JPII). This is only a sampling of contradictions. There is nothing directly fatal to Catholicism about contradictions within it, but it convinces some people that it is not true.

3.A non-sensical relation to Judaism. There is no coherent interpretation of the law ‘not passing away’. There is no coherent theology of the relationship of the old and new covenants, only a variety of contradictory theories. There is no familial relationship of Christ to King David that a Jew will accept. The apostles had a hard time accepting the crucifixion for a good reason - it was not the anticipated nature of the messiah to die without achieving temporal order. This means the chosen people really had no idea what they were chosen for or how it would come about.

4.Gospel contradictions and historical inaccuracies. Where did the holy family reside? Why were they in Bethlehem? Who ordered the census? Which infants did Herod kill? Who was at the tomb? When did Jesus appear? When did Jesus ascend?

Those are a few.

So you reject Christianity in general?

 

[Randy_Carson]

To the OP: I would like to see a thread on all the great, true and beautiful reasons to be a Catholic - something a bit more positive for a change! Constantly finding fault with R.C Church is a bit like the erroneous premise of approaching Scripture to look for faults from the outset instead of searching to find the Truth. But I think remaining on friendly terms is paramount as part of the process and hope that those who do feel an aversion to the R.C Church may find peace with it. As Christians, I guess we all have a responsibility to bridge paths not blow them up - this goes for protestants too, though.

To be honest, I was mostly just curious to see what folks would offer and how solid those arguments would be. After all, as an apologist, it makes sense to know what your adversary is thinking.

1 Peter 3:15
15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence;

I’m still trying to get better at the gentleness and reverence part.

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

So you reject Christianity in general?

Any fool can tell the early Church was more like Catholicism, or at least Eastern Orthodoxy, than any form of Protestantism. If Catholicism (sacramental, hierarchical Christianity) is false, certainly Protestantism is false.

 

[Randy_Carson]

When I was a kid my Catholic friends were required to abstain from meat on Fridays.
The Catholic church forbids some people(priests) from marriage.
The Spirit has told us about such people.

4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Tim 4

FYI-

Being a priest is optional, so no one is forbidden to marry by the Catholic Church. It is chosen freely.

Jesus said that those who could accept celibacy should do so.

 

[Randy_Carson]

First we must ask what does “De Fide” mean:

“De Fide” means of the faith. That which is “De Fide” must be believed by Catholics.

From Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:

§ 3. Mary’s Immaculate Conception

1. Dogma
   
   Mary was conceived without stain of original sin.
   (De Fide.)​
   **

IOW, the IC [must] be believed by Catholics.

Do you think someone can go through RCIA to become Catholic and be received into the Church if they don’t believe the IC to be true?

Some would say yes because of the law of graduality.

But I think there is a risk that someone would become a Catholic, never accept the truths they struggle with, and eventually leave.

Scripture says that their last condition may be worse than the first.

 

[PRmerger]

Any fool can tell the early Church was more like Catholicism, or at least Eastern Orthodoxy, than any form of Protestantism.

If Catholicism (sacramental, hierarchical Christianity) is false, certainly Protestantism is false.

Absolutely.

So where do you stand, as far as what is true?

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

So where do you stand, as far as what is true?

I’m thinking about it.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m thinking about it.

Historical Jesus? Existed? Yes? Or no?

Rose from the dead? Yes? Or no?

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

Historical Jesus? Existed? Yes? Or no?

Obviously yes. There’s no other credible alternative to someone who founded a movement which had regional status in the ancient world within 20 years of his death, and was empire-wide in less than a century. Only a claim of divinity could possible cause anyone to question whether Jesus existed. If he had claimed to be the strongest man in the world, or the smartest, he’d be considered one of the best-attested figures in ancient history. No, it’s quite certain Jesus existed.

Rose from the dead? Yes? Or no?

Well, that’s the entire question, isn’t it?

 

[PRmerger]

Obviously yes.

Stay and chat here for a while and you will be surprised to find that a lot of things we find “obvious” are, curiously, not so for some.

Well, that’s the entire question, isn’t it?

Indeed.

Let’s start with this: do you think the Apostles and witnesses lied about it?

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

Let’s start with this: do you think the Apostles and witnesses lied about it?

Perhaps. A lot of Catholics think this is impossible. Perhaps it is.

I think the most likely case is that no living person on Earth truly knows the mental state of Jews living in 1st century Palestine. It appears to have been, to put it mildly, a hotbed for apocalyptic movements. Wild religious movements in modern times appear to attract witnesses willing to sacrifice for them, and of course they can’t all be true. The real problem is the use of ‘lie’. Human history is rife with people who, singly or in groups, went off on wild, idealistic crusades, even unto death, for ‘mistaken ideas’. The breadth of human psychology includes all kinds of self-deception, far more nuanced than ‘lying’ or ‘not lying’.

 

[friardchips]

…to interject here: the way that people know is because we have what humans have named: ‘time’. No other historical figure enters the life of a person in an intimate way as Jesus does: Socrates might stimulate or influence an intellectual’s philosophical viewpoint; Shakespeare influenced English language and theatre; Hinduism influences Yoga practitioners; the Romans inspire historians; Martin Luther inspires protestants; Jesus ‘invites’ everyone in all areas of their lives, all throughout the ages - whether or not they listen. God is there in all times, and can’t be escaped from:

• Psalm 138: 'God knows the Human Heart’.
• John 1
• Revelation 22:13 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

Neither God, Jesus, nor time - movement, and human consciousness, held in existence by grace, created for the growth of life in which God reveals Himself during - are not myths, otherwise, so is all of life and existence as we know it!

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

No other historical figure enters the life of a person in an intimate way as Jesus does: Socrates might stimulate or influence an intellectual’s philosophical viewpoint; Shakespeare influenced English language and theatre; Hinduism influences Yoga practitioners; the Romans inspire historians; Martin Luther inspires protestants; Jesus ‘invites’ everyone in all areas of their lives, all throughout the ages - whether or not they listen. God is there in all times, and can’t be escaped from:

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[friardchips]

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

You obviously didn’t read the post!

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

You obviously didn’t read the post!

I read it. I saw an assertion

No other historical figure enters the life of a person in an intimate way as Jesus does

without any particular evidence that is not entirely recursive.

 

[friardchips]

I read it. I saw an assertion

without any particular evidence that is not entirely recursive.

Try the millions of Catholics, let alone Christians across the world, today and throughout all time, since Jesus lived.

Do a tally!

There’s your proof!

As I said, you didn’t read my post.

 

[benjohnson]

The real problem is the use of ‘lie’. Human history is rife with people who, singly or in groups, went off on wild, idealistic crusades, even unto death, for ‘mistaken ideas’. The breadth of human psychology includes all kinds of self-deception, far more nuanced than ‘lying’ or ‘not lying’.

I certainly understand the conundrum. Here’s a bit of humor about it:

youtube.com/watch?v=5p9CY976_kw&index=2&list=PL5600D968E6CC2A88

Lutherans would tell you that reading the history of this planet would lead you to surmise that God is a possibility, but that faith itself is a gift from God.

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

Try the millions of Catholics, let alone Christians across the world, today and throughout all time, since Jesus lived.

Do a tally!

There’s your proof!

As I said, you didn’t read my post.

As I said, I read your post. Also, as I said ‘completely recursive’. There are a lot of Christians =/= Christianity is true.

 

[clem456]

First we must ask what does “De Fide” mean:

“De Fide” means of the faith. That which is “De Fide” must be believed by Catholics.
…]

IOW, the IC [must] be believed by Catholics.

Do you think someone can go through RCIA to become Catholic and be received into the Church if they don’t believe the IC to be true?

RCIA is not an inquisition. It is a process by which an individual learns about the faith and is welcomed into the body of Christ. A person going through RCIA becomes incorporated into the Catholic Church. That means “part of the body”…note the personal language.

A Catholic is asked to give his/her trusting assent to Christ through his body, the Church. The IC is one belief that is part of the whole of the beliefs, the foundation of which is the person of Christ. There is no single Catholic that perfectly understands all doctrine, or can spit it out with the tongues of angels. As our relationship with Christ and his Church develops, these teachings become faith. Severed from a relationship with Christ, the IC and all other teachings are just words on a page.

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”

26 We begin our profession of faith by saying: “I believe” or “We believe”. Before expounding the Church’s faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God’s commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what “to believe” means. Faith is man’s response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life.

It’s clear that faith is not recitation of dogma at the point of a gun, but the loving response to God who reveals himself through Scripture and his Church. Faith only has light and meaning in the context.

I back all of my responses with authoritative documents. Unless I am met under the same conditions, its all just opinions.

See the catechism.