Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[friardchips]

As I said, I read your post. Also, as I said ‘completely recursive’. There are a lot of Christians =/= Christianity is true.

There seems to be in influx of computer terms on this forum, fortunately, many people don’t believe, and history proves, that human existence cannot be summed up with these one-dimensional terms.

I think you mean: life / time / existence / family / love =/= Christianity is true.

Again, you didn’t read my post!

---

Lutherans would be greatly mistaken.

 

[Al_Gonkwin]

Again, you didn’t read my post!

Either I didn’t understand it, or I did and didn’t find it compelling, but yes, I read it.

And, again, there’s no evidence for anything within it.

 

[benjohnson]

As I said, I read your post. Also, as I said ‘completely recursive’. There are a lot of Christians =/= Christianity is true.

You’re wise to discount the number of believers as evidence - some of the older members of my church would argue that the Salvation offered by Christ is true despite the multitude of believers who make a mess of things.

Generally, Catholics tend to think that faith in Christ can come by rational means - that if we study the evidence, we’ll be lead to an obvious conclusion.

Lutherans tend to tell you that the evidence can lead you in the right direction, but that if we depend entirely on physical evidence, we risk creating a God out of our own mind.

That God would be useless as our minds and hearts can’t save us - the God that can save us from ourselves is entirely un-knowable and is indeed a mystery.

Personally, for myself, I joined the church in a poor version of Pascals Wager - in that I underwood that the worst that could happen is that the church would teach me to be a decent person and love my neighbors and love my enemies. Faith came later, but as I’ve grown older, I have to ascribe even my initial walk toward God as a form of faith that was God given.

-Ben

 

[guanophore]

  Moreover, holding a position of supremacy does not imply mindless obedience, i.e., I hardly think that Pope St. Leo expected them to affirm the tome without any discussion on the part of his brother bishops. ** Your understanding of papal supremacy lacks** unfortunately nuance, i.e., it is not an absolute form of supremacy that the Catholic Church teaches but one that that entails certain prerogatives for one who is head of the visible Church on earth and successor to Saint Peter.

.

I wonder if there is this warped perspective because people have had so much misinformation about the role of the pope. I think if all anyone read was Exsurge Domine they might have the misunderstanding that the Pope is not collegial with the other Bishops.

 

[clem456]

I wonder if there is this warped perspective because people have had so much misinformation about the role of the pope. I think if all anyone read was Exsurge Domine they might have the misunderstanding that the Pope is not collegial with the other Bishops.

Might be several reasons for warped perspective on authority.
Misunderstanding of what freedom is.
Rebellion.
Pride.

Poor modeling and understanding of authority by Christians.
We forget it’s source and it’s proper usage.

The Pope is the servant of the servants of God

 

[friardchips]

Either I didn’t understand it, or I did and didn’t find it compelling, but yes, I read it.

Thank you! I think it is more that you didn’t read into it.

And, again, there’s no evidence for anything within it.

I think the difference in understanding here is what we both see and term as evidence.

 

[friardchips]

You’re wise to discount the number of believers as evidence - some of the older members of my church would argue that the Salvation offered by Christ is true despite the multitude of believers who make a mess of things.

‘Wisdom’ is a word widely over-used and misunderstood.

So the Church is not made up of saved sinners then…

Generally, Catholics tend to think that faith in Christ can come by rational means - that if we study the evidence, we’ll be lead to an obvious conclusion.

Lutherans tend to tell you that the evidence can lead you in the right direction, but that if we depend entirely on physical evidence, we risk creating a God out of our own mind.

Thanks for speaking on behalf of all Christians and summing us all up in one huge over-generalisation!

That God would be useless as our minds and hearts can’t save us - the God that can save us from ourselves is entirely un-knowable and is indeed a mystery.

Funny, because Catholics believe He is a mystery too. Although Catholics would argue that people can come to know God otherwise it wouldn’t be much of a relationship would it! Although imperfect knowledge before we reach Heaven.

Personally, for myself, I joined the church in a poor version of Pascals Wager - in that I underwood that the worst that could happen is that the church would teach me to be a decent person and love my neighbors and love my enemies. Faith came later, but as I’ve grown older, I have to ascribe even my initial walk toward God as a form of faith that was God given.

-Ben

Many people from all denominations would probably say the same.

‘Faith’ being the key word.

 

[friardchips]

Obviously yes. There’s no other credible alternative to someone who founded a movement which had regional status in the ancient world within 20 years of his death, and was empire-wide in less than a century. Only a claim of divinity could possible cause anyone to question whether Jesus existed. If he had claimed to be the strongest man in the world, or the smartest, he’d be considered one of the best-attested figures in ancient history. No, it’s quite certain Jesus existed.

Going back to this post, you are seemingly contradicting yourself now, by arguing with my posts (?!)

 

[benjohnson]

Thanks for speaking on behalf of all Christians and summing us all up in one huge over-generalisation!

Lutherans have noted that arguments tend to work better when read through the lens of the 8th commandment in charity.

It appears that the CCC has come to the same conclusion:

2481 Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior.

 

[friardchips]

Lutherans have noted that arguments tend to work better when read through the lens of the 8th commandment in charity.

It appears that the CCC has come to the same conclusion:

2481 Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior.

I know that many people have a problem understanding ‘irony’ and using the term ‘over-generalisation’ is not irony!

I am entitled to disagree and profess disagreement to a post that stereotypes and makes massive generalisations.

It could be considered rude, to take what someone says in one post, and tell the other poster engaged in dialogue with them, to ignore the previous poster’s opinion…?! :sad_yes: - not very charitable.

 

[clem456]

Generally, Catholics tend to think that faith in Christ can come by rational means - that if we study the evidence, we’ll be lead to an obvious conclusion.

Not just generalization, but more of a half truth.

What Catholics believe about the relationship of faith and reason:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

I can’t add to your comments on Lutheran belief in this area cause anything I would say would be a generalization. I would have to study what you actually believe.

 

[friardchips]

Not just generalization, but more of a half truth.

What Catholics believe about the relationship of faith and reason:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

I can’t add to your comments on Lutheran belief in this area cause anything I would say would be a generalization. I would have to study what you actually believe.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

‘The Church is no stranger to this journey of discovery, nor could she ever be. From the moment when, through the Paschal Mystery, she received the gift of the ultimate truth about human life, the Church has made her pilgrim way along the paths of the world to proclaim that Jesus Christ is “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6). It is her duty to serve humanity in different ways, but one way in particular imposes a responsibility of a quite special kind: the diakonia of the truth.(1) This mission on the one hand makes the believing community a partner in humanity’s shared struggle to arrive at truth; (2) and on the other hand it obliges the believing community to proclaim the certitudes arrived at, albeit with a sense that every truth attained is but a step towards that fullness of truth which will appear with the final Revelation of God: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully” (1 Cor 13:12).’

Respectfully, there is no mention of any half-truths. Just certified truths within the one ultimate Truth.

 

[chero23]

People look bored at mass. If Catholics do it best then why do other churches seem to light a fire in people more effectively?

I have heard that reason but, that cannot be your theological reason for not being Catholic. (this is not against the OP, just for those ho use that as an excuse or reason).

 

[friardchips]

Lutherans have noted that arguments tend to work better when read through the lens of the 8th commandment in charity.

It appears that the CCC has come to the same conclusion:

2481 Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior.

I’ll add that my posts are sometimes in jest and if I do get annoyed I don’t as a rule slip into sarcasm. However, on my part, if any offence was caused, which seems to be the case, I will look to rephrase my posts so they are in future well within the boundaries of charity! Thank you for pointing out my need for improvement in this way.

 

[chero23]

Why would I do that? If you want to be Catholic, be a Catholic. If you don’t want to be Catholic, then don’t join.

I think what the person was asking was some of the reasons people say or use to not joining the RCC.

 

[clem456]

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

‘The Church is no stranger to this journey of discovery, nor could she ever be. From the moment when, through the Paschal Mystery, she received the gift of the ultimate truth about human life, the Church has made her pilgrim way along the paths of the world to proclaim that Jesus Christ is “the way, and the truth, and the life” (Jn 14:6). It is her duty to serve humanity in different ways, but one way in particular imposes a responsibility of a quite special kind: the diakonia of the truth.(1) This mission on the one hand makes the believing community a partner in humanity’s shared struggle to arrive at truth; (2) and on the other hand it obliges the believing community to proclaim the certitudes arrived at, albeit with a sense that every truth attained is but a step towards that fullness of truth which will appear with the final Revelation of God: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully” (1 Cor 13:12).’

Respectfully, there is no mention of any half-truths. Just certified truths within the one ultimate Truth.

ummmmm,
I’m not sure why you quoted my post to reference that…I was addressing Ben Johnson’s post.

 

[josie_L]

Might be several reasons for warped perspective on authority.
Misunderstanding of what freedom is.
Rebellion.
Pride.

Poor modeling and understanding of authority by Christians.
We forget it’s source and it’s proper usage.

Absolutely!!

 

[guanophore]

Thank for joining the discussion Pitbull.

I quoted 1 Tim 4, go back a chapter to 1 Tin 3 where I think Paul’s talking about the guy who seeks the “priesthood”.

3 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Your use of the quotes above around “priesthood” make me wonder if you perhaps do not believe there is a NT priesthood.

There are three orders mentioned in the NT, deacons, elders (presbyters/priests) and bishops. In the begining most of those who served in these offices were married, including Apostles. Over time, the Church craved those whose interests were not divided to serve in Holy Orders.

Paul gives criteria for a bishop.

2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,

3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity.

5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

Paul’s bishops have a wife, kids and a well run household.
Do the bishops in the Catholic church have the same?
Do the rules in your church allow a bishop to be married or is that forbidden?

The CC does not forbid the marriiage of anyone. However, she prefers to choose from among those gifted with celibacy to serve in Holy Orders.

It’s been a while since I was a kid but I’m pretty sure my Catholic friends believed they had been told by their church it was sin to eat meat on Friday.

When a corporate fast is called, all of the faithful are expected to participte. Refusing to do so is considered a sin of disobedience to the authorities that God has appointed to shepherd the flock.

Those that would tell my friends such an awful lie are exactly the folks Paul is talking about.

You don’t think it is a good practice for the faithful to fast together?

If you think that Catholics are lying to children, what brings you to the Catholic Answers website?

4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 1 Tim 4

 

[friardchips]

ummmmm,
I’m not sure why you quoted my post to reference that…I was addressing Ben Johnson’s post.

Without wishing to get into another line of discussion, was picking up on something you said about ‘half-truths’, which seemed incorrect when having read the link to the Vatican article you’d posted, following on from what you were discussing with another poster. Thanks.

 

[friardchips]

ummmmm,
I’m not sure why you quoted my post to reference that…I was addressing Ben Johnson’s post.

Oh, I see! uch:

You were correcting the previous poster by disproving the poster’s statements with the Vatican article; you weren’t saying that the Vatican article believed in half-truths! I read your post incorrectly but meant no harm all the same. Wow…I was way off the mark there…I’m going to skiddy-daddle out of here. Sorry for confusion! )