Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[PRmerger]

Forensic analysis revealed that the date/time settings on the surveillance software was off by one month. And that my client did in fact buy it himself at the time of the murder

Nope.

He did not buy the beer. That is a fact.

Are you really trying to support the idea that everything we know can only be proven by physical evidence? That our subjective experience counts for nothing?

Really, Isaiah?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Nope.

He did not buy the beer. That is a fact.

Are you really trying to support the idea that everything we know can only be proven by physical evidence? That our subjective experience counts for nothing?

Really, Isaiah?

ETA: Too much CSI? lol

 

[PRmerger]

ETA: Too much CSI? lol

Well, then, I return to my argument and reiterate: it’s possible for evidence to suggest [A] happened, and the only evidence to the contrary is my own experience.

If we go by the atheistic paradigm, we would have to discount our own subjective experience and say, “Well, I guess I really did commit that murder. That’s what the evidence shows.”

 

[eirene101]

I’m answering from my phone so the replies may come in slowly. Well purgatory is not in the bible. If purgatory is a temporary place to cleanse our sins, then why did Jesus die on the cross if we can given a “second chance” after death? After death, it’s either you go to heaven or hell after judgment. (Hebrews 9:27) Now Mary, she was a godly woman but I wouldn’t say she was sinless, as Jesus is the only sinless Man. If she hears all prayers, then that’s saying she’s omniscient. So wouldn’t that be saying that she is the same as God? Why would I need to ask Mary to guide me to her Son when I am supposed to ask directly to Jesus?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m answering from my phone so the replies may come in slowly. Well purgatory is not in the bible. If purgatory is a temporary place to cleanse our sins, then why did Jesus die on the cross if we can given a “second chance” after death? After death, it’s either you go to heaven or hell after judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

Myth #1: Purgatory is a place where we get a “second chance.” By getting it right in Purgatory, we get to go to heaven.

Fact: At the moment of death, our final destiny is already established; we are bound for heaven or hell, and there is no “second chance’ to get it right in order to enter heaven. Instead, the invitation to heaven has already been issued. Only the “clean-up” remains before putting on one’s wedding garments.

Now Mary, she was a godly woman but I wouldn’t say she was sinless, as Jesus is the only sinless Man.

Is there a verse of scripture that supports this? I’m asking, because it’s important to see what the Bible does and does not actually say about this.

If she hears all prayers, then that’s saying she’s omniscient. So wouldn’t that be saying that she is the same as God?

No. Clearly, Mary is not God, so we can breathe easier about that. Second, Mary is not omniscient, but that does not mean that God does not enable the saints to “hear” our prayers. In fact, the angels in Revelation have them in big bowls and offer them to God. So, how did the angels get them if the saints in heaven cannot hear us? And remember, angels are saints, too!

Why would I need to ask Mary to guide me to her Son when I am supposed to ask directly to Jesus?

Does your Bible study have a prayer chain? Asking saints in heaven to pray for you works just like that…except those prayer partners are already in God’s presence. And you know what the Bible says about the prayers of the righteous…

 

[PRmerger]

I’m answering from my phone so the replies may come in slowly. Well purgatory is not in the bible.

But you, too, already believe one thing that’s not in the Bible: everything that we believe has to be found in the Bible.

That’s not found in the Bible, irene.

You are following a man-made tradition with that one. You heard someone say it, who heard another person say it, but no one ever read: “All things we believe [about God] must be found in the Bible”

 

[eirene101]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory and praying to Mary & saints?

 

[PRmerger]

If purgatory is a temporary place to cleanse our sins, then why did Jesus die on the cross if we can given a “second chance” after death?

Purgatory is not a second chance. It is simply the antechamber to heaven. The mud room to the House, so to speak. Where we get cleaned up before appearing before the Eternal Godhead.

After all, nothing impure can enter heaven, right? (Rev 21:27)

After death, it’s either you go to heaven or hell after judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

Yes. Very Catholic, this!

Now Mary, she was a godly woman but I wouldn’t say she was sinless, as Jesus is the only sinless Man.

Why does someone have to be sinless to hear our prayers?

And do you believe that sinful people are in heaven?

If she hears all prayers, then that’s saying she’s omniscient.

You are chatting with me, miles away. We are not face to face. Does that make you omniscient?

So wouldn’t that be saying that she is the same as God?

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love Him.

We can do all things through Christ!

Why would I need to ask Mary to guide me to her Son when I am supposed to ask directly to Jesus?

You can go to Jesus. But you don’t have to go ONLY to Jesus. That’s NOT Biblical.

If anyone ever asks you, “Please pray for my mom–she’s having surgery tomorrow!”…
do you respond, “Why are you coming to me? Why don’t you go to Jesus directly?”

 

[PRmerger]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory and praying to Mary & saints?

It’s right after the verse that says you have to find everything in the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory and praying to Mary & saints?

Again, irene, you have been duped into believing a man-made tradition that states that everything we believe has to be found in the Bible.

It’s self-contradicting, because that belief can’t be found from Genesis through Revelation.

I ask you this: do you believe the Epistle to the Hebrews is the Word of God?

I’m sure you do.

Now, where in the Bible does it say that the Epistle to the Hebrews is the Word of God?

Answer: nowhere.

So, do you see how you believe some things that are not found in the Bible also?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory and praying to Mary & saints?

One at a time…

Starting with supporting verses.

The Doctrine of Purgatory Proved from Scripture

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Obviously, there is no sin to forgive in heaven, and sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and judgment is permanent. Therefore, the “world to come” where sin can still be forgiven must be a third, distinct place.

Luke 12:42-48
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell)l; and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Purgatory and the Treasury of Merits Explained

At death, we are judged by God, and there are only two options: heaven or hell. If you are bound for hell, then that’s pretty much the end of the story. If you are going to heaven, then there are two possibilities: either A) you are going straight to heaven because you are completely without stain or blemish at the moment of your death, or B) you need to take a shower and put on some clean clothes before going to the ball.

Purgatory is the place (or state) in which the cleansing of the temporal effects of sin is accomplished by God. We do nothing here. Remember, the ETERNAL effects of sin are ALREADY dealt with by Jesus’ death and resurrection…only the temporal effects still remain to be cleansed in Purgatory.

Here’s an example from scripture that will relieve your fears:

When David sinned with Bathsheba, a child was conceived. The eternal effect of David’s sin was forgiven by God; the prophet Nathan declared that God had forgiven David. However, the temporal effect of David’s sin remained; the child died despite David’s prayer and fasting for the child.

Here’s an example from real life:

A child breaks a neighbor’s window while playing baseball. The neighbor forgives the child (addressing the eternal effect of the transgression), and the relationship with the neighbor is restored by the child’s repentance. However, the child still has to mow grass to earn the money to pay for the window (addressing the temporal effect of the transgression).

One more thing to blow your mind:

The other kids who were playing can also contribute to the kitty to pay for the window. Similarly, the Church can assist those in Purgatory by applying what is known as the “treasury of merits” to that person’s debt. Since we can do nothing satisfying to God apart from Christ, all of the merits of the saints are, in effect, Christ’s own merits, so we’re not “earning our way into heaven”…we’re simply moving a few “dollars” from one account to another through Him who is able to accomplish all.

 

[Randy_Carson]

And a wee bit more…

What Purgatory is not

Purgatory is not a second chance.
Purgatory is not a place where the soul can do anything to cleans himself; all cleansing is done by God alone.
Purgatory is not a “third option” for people who are “too good” for heaven but “too bad” for heaven; there are only two destinations for those who have died: heaven or hell.

What is Purgatory?

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Temporal effects of sin illustrated from scripture.

The temporal effects of sin are best illustrated in Genesis 3:14-20, where God pronounces a series of maledictions against Adam and Eve, the serpent, and even the physical creation itself, all as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience: the original sin. The eternal penalty of their sin—hell—was something Christ atoned for on the cross, and Adam and Eve’s salvation and avoidance of that penalty was due to their faith in God’s promises and their subsequent obedience to His laws, but the temporal effects of sin remained. Enmity with the rest of nature, having to work to eat, labor pains for women, sickness, and eventually death, were all part of the punishments God permitted to fall upon Adam and Eve and all of us, their descendants. So when you, a born-again Christian, receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you correctly believe that He will forgive you of your sins and remit the eternal punishment they deserve. But you still are going to have to get up and go to work tomorrow, right? Your wife will still experience pain in childbirth; you may even someday be afflicted with cancer, or some other life-threatening disease. You might have a heart attack. And in the end you, like me and everybody else, will eventually suffer the greatest of the temporal punishments outlined in Genesis 3: You are going to die someday. Christ’s atoning sacrifice paid for your sins, but it didn’t wipe out the temporal effects, including the punishments I just mentioned of your sins.

There are other examples of the principle of temporal punishments due to sin that God does not even eliminate even when we repent and are forgiven of our sins.

For example, in 2 Samuel 12:14-14, we see the tragic case of King David. He had sinned by committing adultery and murder, and though the Lord forgave him when he repented, there were repercussions that followed which god did not alleviate. A form of restitution was still owed:

2 Samuel 12:13-14
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

Now, how does all this fit into the doctrine of purgatory? Purgatory is the place or state (however you’d like to think of it) in which the fire of God’s love purifies us from the temporal effects due to sin, which include any temporal punishments due to our sins.

 

[eirene101]

So if you’re saying if purgatory is not in the bible…then where this come from? In Timothy 2:5, it states that there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, so why would I need a saint to mediate for me?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory and praying to Mary & saints?

And now for your second question:

Praying to Saints and the Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture

1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ

“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

And we are joined with Christ through baptism

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)

1. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)

“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)

1. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

1. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth

“His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)

1. The Church is the Body of Christ

“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)

1. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

1. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not “dead” at all.

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)

 

[Randy_Carson]

So if you’re saying if purgatory is not in the bible…then where this come from? In Timothy 2:5, it states that there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, so why would I need a saint to mediate for me?

First, the word, Purgatory, is not in the Bible, but neither is the word, trinity. So, that is not a problem.

Second, I explained how to find the principles of Purgatory in scripture.

Third, you do not NEED a saint to mediate for you, but it’s nice to know that you have prayer partners in heaven, eh?

Finally, some clarification about the “one mediator” would help:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

In the passage from Hebrews, we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” This is significant: the role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

 

[PRmerger]

So if you’re saying if purgatory is not in the bible…then where this come from?

It comes from the same entity which told you that the Epistle to the Hebrews is the inspired Word of God: from the Catholic Church. From Sacred Tradition.

Incidentally, I haven’t actually said that purgatory isn’t in the Bible. Randy has given you a great explication of Scriptural support for it.

But the teaching itself comes from Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture reflects this teaching.

In Timothy 2:5, it states that there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ, so why would I need a saint to mediate for me?

Firstly, there is indeed only One Mediator–Jesus Christ. But we all participate in this mediatorship through our union with Him.

You need a saint to mediate for you for the same reason you ask your friend to pray for you: because the prayers of a righteous man avails us much.

If you have asked someone to pray for you…or if you’ve prayed for someone else…then you have become a mediator, irene.

Do you pray for other folks? Yes? Or no?

Also, do you see that little icon at the bottom right of these responses that says “QUOTE”? Could you click on that to help us see to whom you are responding?

 

[eirene101]

But if you’re saying that everything can’t be found in the bible…then that means man is making up their own rituals and traditions. Even if someone quotes a verse from the bible…it comes from the catechism or Catholic bible. Would that mean that the catholic bible is vastly different from the holy bible? This goes for any denomination. If I ask a Mormon why they reject the Trinity (if I’m not mistaken)…they’d bring out their Book of Mormon and I’m sure it’ll be there as to why they reject it. I know that every church (denomination) has it’s own traditions and beliefs. I wouldn’t consider myself to be a bible-only type person but there’s some things I’ve given the side eye. For instance, how God commands not to worship any graven images…yet I would see in Catholic churches graven images and see people kissing or kneeling down to them…idolatry much? I know someone may ask me "didn’t you kiss your dolls when you were younger…didn’t you kneel or bow your head in respect of your elders? Of course I did! But I didn’t pray to it nor felt that kneeling to it would give me some sort of comfort that it’s my hearing prayers. The things I never understood about Catholicism is to me it seemed too ritualistic i.e pray to the rosary, say 10 Hail Mary, confess sins to priest, babies must be baptize during infancy, goods works can help your way to heaven…

 

[PRmerger]

But if you’re saying that everything can’t be found in the bible…then that means man is making up their own rituals and traditions.

Think about this, irene: there was no Bible for 300 years. 300 years! That’s the time from when the Pilgrims arrived on Plymouth Rock to about present day. No Bible.

How do you think the Christians proclaimed the gospel with the Bible? Were they making up their own rituals and traditions?

 

[jmcrae]

I’m answering from my phone so the replies may come in slowly. Well purgatory is not in the bible. If purgatory is a temporary place to cleanse our sins, then why did Jesus die on the cross if we can given a “second chance” after death?

Purgatory isn’t a “second chance” - Jesus certainly died on the Cross for our sins which is how Purgatory even becomes possible. Purgatory is for believers who are not yet perfected.

After death, it’s either you go to heaven or hell after judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

Heaven is for the perfect and Hell is for the unbelievers. Where do they go who are believers but are not yet perfect?

Now Mary, she was a godly woman but I wouldn’t say she was sinless, as Jesus is the only sinless Man. If she hears all prayers, then that’s saying she’s omniscient. So wouldn’t that be saying that she is the same as God? Why would I need to ask Mary to guide me to her Son when I am supposed to ask directly to Jesus?

Are you the same as God if someone asks you for help and you give it? Mary is in Heaven. She is the perfect version of herself. She can see and hear and do things. This does not make her God.