Give me your best argument AGAINST becoming Catholic.

[Sy_Noe]

Has there been a time where you’ve conformed your views to what the Church has said, despite your own personal preference that something else be true?

In my case, I would absolutely LOVE it if I could celebrate my girlfriends’ second marriages with them. I was at their first weddings to LOSERS, and my own personal belief is that their new sweethearts are wonderful men.

But, alas, I cannot change the words of Christ, and he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery, so now I conform my views to Christ.

Not my preference, but I understand that I can’t just make up how I want to rule the world.

What about you? Can you acknowledge a time when you’ve done this? Conformed your view despite what your own personal wishes would be?

Sure. I have never had a problem with the spiritual presence of Christ amongst us. And through proper catechesis I’ve of course always known the Church goes beyond this and have always known what the Church teaches about the Eucharist. Yet admittedly I have struggled a lot for instance with transubstantiation and a physical real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the Church’s interpretation of the Last Supper and interpretation of the words in Jn 6. I’m not the only one on earth who has or does. But if I were a practicing Catholic, you can bet I would conform. Not having quite as much or the same faith as you do though either in human writings or in interpretations or Catholic Church authority is probably why you’re faithful to the CC and I’m non practicing.

 

[PRmerger]

No, the best would be whatever my number is.

Well, that’s a funny response, but it doesn’t really address the question.

How many dogmas are the correct number to have? If you think less is better, then the logical inference is that 1 is the best.

How do you refute that?

 

[PRmerger]

Sure. I have never had a problem with the spiritual presence of Christ amongst us. And through proper catechesis I’ve of course always known the Church goes beyond this and have always known what the Church teaches about the Eucharist. Yet admittedly I have struggled a lot for instance with transubstantiation and a physical real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the Church’s interpretation of the Last Supper and the words in Jn 6 I’m not the only one on earth who has or does. But if I were a practicing Catholic, you can bet I would conform.

So this is NOT an example of what I asked for. In fact, it is an example of where you have NOT conformed. You have not returned to the Eucharist.

Not having quite as much or the same faith as you do though either in human writings or in interpretations or Catholic Church authority is probably why you’re faithful to the CC and I’m non practicing.

So would I be correct in assuming that you don’t have an example of where you have conformed?

 

[guanophore]

For me at this stage of my faith journey, I can't become a practicing Catholic because I feel smothered when confined to what would be expected of me.

I find this very intriguing. I don’t know if it is too personal (if so, then please disregard) but what do you believe would be expected of you that would leave you “smothered”?

You have listed your affiliation as “mainline”. Is it right for me to assume that you do NOT presently feel “smothered”?

I believe all humans have limitations in knowing the one ultimate truth so I just accept life’s mysteries and the mysteries that come with faith. I personally am more at peace when things are not arranged so neatly in a box of black and white. I like more gray. But that’s how God made me to tick.

I agree that we all see thorugh a glass darkly, but I also believe that God did not leave us “orphans” with regard ot how we are to get to heaven. For that reason, He has revealed all that we need to know for our journey.

I am surprised to the second part of your post because there seems to be such a broad amount of the Catholic faith that is “gray”. Perhaps you are referring to moral imperaitves that are “neatly in a box”?

just prefer wearing gray socks but others prefer wearing black or white ones. It’s just at what stage each of us are along our faith journeys. And may God bless us all as we journey in peace.

I think it boils down to more than a matter of perssonal preference. If God commands us to wear black or white do you not believe He will give us suffficient grace to achieve this, even though we may prefer gray?

 

[benhur]

Yes, because the Apostles taught that He has provided everyone with sufficient grace to be saved. Catholics call this prevenient or drawing grace.

You posted " when we receive his unmerited favor, we are transformed by it", I would word differently to," His unmerited favor transforms us enabling us to receive it " . Yes there is drawing grace, but it does not in of itself transform us, not yet, but brings us to the well .There is nothing good in us to give us common sense to go to the well, hence the need for even "drawing grace’,’ to be followed with drinking, transformative grace.

No. While we were yet sinners, He died for us. We are separated from Him by sin, and since was are not in right relationship with him, there is nothing we can do of ourselves to “merit” anything. Only after we are justified by grace, through faith, can we produce any deeds that befit repentance.

OK

In order to walk in the ways He has prescribed for us, we must already BE in a state of grace. We cannot enter a state of grace without grace, so I think you lost me here on “conditionnal”.

By conditions I mean what must you do to obtain the original grace and any graces to follow.For instance some say you must be baptized, and other say it is then sacramentally administered, or by corporal works etc .

.

 

[guanophore]

I hope you notice the irony in that almost every single one of your statements above is…a black and white statement.

PR…

Always hitting that nail on the head.

 

[Sy_Noe]

All I take from him is that he has less black and white , dogamtized truth’s as compared to “others”/Catholics. All have some mysteries and things "open ended’’. Maybe he has 88 solid truths and CC 102. Maybe he is closer to the Nicene Creeds than to Council of Trent declarations or Vat 1 or 2. My “A” exclusive view is that the lower the number, the more universal to all.

Ben, if I’m not mistaken for some reason I thought you were LCMS but I could be wrong. In any case even you and I may not be in exactly the same spot along our journeys with God. But I sure hope we ( by we I include PRMerger) end up there with Him at the end. Can you imagine us together in heaven discussing our times on CAF. I pray it becomes so through His mercy! Anyways thanks for trying to understand. You’ve expressed me better than me I think. God bless and peace.

 

[benhur]

Well, that’s a funny response, but it doesn’t really address the question.

How many dogmas are the correct number to have? If you think less is better, then the logical inference is that 1 is the best.

How do you refute that?

By itself, I don’t refute any logical inference . It is another topic and don’t know what a “number” might be. For sure we can start with Nicene creed with one additional dogma at least : defining what "catholic’’ means in it.

 

[PRmerger]

By itself I don’t . it is another topic and don’t know what a “number” might be.

I think you’re right. And I would think that it’s just an arbitrary, unreasonable statement for you to assert that less universal truths are better than more.

It’s a statement with absolutely no basis in reality.

 

[benhur]

Ben, if I’m not mistaken for some reason I thought you were LCMS but I could be wrong. In any case even you and I may not be in exactly the same spot along our journeys with God. But I sure hope we ( by we I include PRMerger) in His mercy end up there with Him at the end. Anyways thanks for trying to understand. You’ve expressed me better than me I think. God bless and peace.

Thank you,and Blessings to you also.

 

[benhur]

I think you’re right. And I would think that it’s just an arbitrary, unreasonable statement for you to assert that less universal truths are better than more.

It’s a statement with absolutely no basis in reality.

Thank you for being so black and white. So does having the most dogmas have a basis in reality (and CC may not have the most) ? If not why not ?

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you for being so black and white. So does having the most dogmas have a basis in reality (and CC may not have the most) ? If not why not ?

I don’t believe the number of dogmas has any basis in reality. That was your position.

 

[Sy_Noe]

So this is NOT an example of what I asked for. In fact, it is an example of where you have NOT conformed. You have not returned to the Eucharist.

So would I be correct in assuming that you don’t have an example of where you have conformed?

No that would be incorrect. Even though I had nothing to do with my being sprinkled or having a little water poured on my head (I was only 42 days old and don’t remember) I have no desire now to be re-baptized or immersed as some adults do. I once debated this in my mind. But I accept my infant Baptism. I just assume there may have been infants in the households.

 

[PRmerger]

No that would be incorrect. Even though I had nothing to do with my being sprinkled or having a little water poured on my head (I was only 42 days old and don’t remember) I have no desire now to be re-baptized or immersed as some adults do. I once debated this in my mind. But I accept my infant Baptism. I just assume there may have been infants in the households.

Huh?

Is this an example of where you have conformed to the Church despite your own person views?

If so, what is your personal view on infant baptism? And how have you conformed?

 

[jmcrae]

Obviously I’ve lost track of something along the way here - this makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Thank you. It is hard to argue against " you need Catholicism to make Protestantism work" when CC says the apostles were , and the bible itself is “Catholic”

They were, for the simple reason that nothing else existed, yet.

…This reminds me of the healed blind man in front of the Sanhedrin, demanding an explanation of who healed him. The blind man finally says , “all I know is that I was blind and now I see, and Jesus must have Godly authority.”

I can see absolutely no connection between the activities of the Protestant rebellion, and Jesus healing a blind man.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Huh?

Is this an example of where you have conformed to the Church despite your own person views?

If so, what is your personal view on infant baptism? And how have you conformed?

Hi PRMerger, I realize it may burst the balloon since I’ve noticed you like to bring up this idea of conforming. But yes I personally at one time gave consideration to the belief that maybe people shouldn’t be baptized as infants, to not be baptized until they are older and understand what they are getting into. Many believers believe in immersion or what they call Bible Baptism. You surely know like I do of faith communities that baptize in the ocean or a river. I’ve conformed by accepting my infant Baptism. By believing I don’t need re-baptized to be a Christian. I confess Christ Lord and Savor. And I understand that in the eyes of the Catholic Church I am Catholic. I surely hopes that helps because I have a few other things to do tonight than discuss or as you might prefer to say argue the stage of my faith and views with you.

 

[jmcrae]

Mark 10:18

“…No one is good but God alone”.

This is why we have confession and penance. The Pharisees didn’t see this. The door is always open.

The door is always open - but it must be walked through, or else nothing can happen.

 

[jmcrae]

For sure why we have imputed righteousness thru gifted faith in Calvary, how else could we be perfect as He commanded ?

Actually, no - when we get to Heaven we have to personally be perfect.

The journey begins with being forgiven of past sins, and the washing away of original sin, and then continuing in the state of grace, and growing in virtue, while avoiding sin.

The reason this isn’t physically impossible is that Christ has given us the seven Sacraments, to free us from sin and to add grace to grace.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRMerger, I realize it may burst the balloon since I’ve noticed you like to bring up this idea of conforming. But yes I personally at one time gave consideration to the belief that maybe people shouldn’t be baptized as infants, to not be baptized until they are older and understand what they are getting into. Many believers believe in immersion or what they call Bible Baptism. You surely know like I do of faith communities that baptize in the ocean or a river. I’ve conformed by accepting my infant Baptism. By believing I don’t need re-baptized to be a Christian. I confess Christ Lord and Savor. And I understand that in the eyes of the Catholic Church I am Catholic. I surely hopes that helps because I have a few other things to do tonight than discuss or as you might prefer to say argue the stage of my faith and views with you.

You never need to apologize for having other things to do, Sy.

Am I to understand that your personal belief is that you reject infant baptism?

Would you then baptize your infant child despite your own personal beliefs?

(Please note: this is a hypothetical only. There is no need to deflect with a really lame excuse like, “I am sterile.” Please think in the abstract).

 

[Peter_J]

For me at this stage of my faith journey, I can’t become a practicing Catholic because I feel smothered when confined to what would be expected of me. I believe all humans have limitations in knowing the one ultimate truth so I just accept life’s mysteries and the mysteries that come with faith. I personally am more at peace when things are not arranged so neatly in a box of black and white. I like more gray. But that’s how God made me to tick. I understand others though have a different make-up and need more black and white and the need to believe they know the truth. And that’s fine. I just breathe better in a looser gray tee than in a tight fitting black or white one and just prefer wearing gray socks but others prefer wearing black or white ones. It’s just at what stage each of us are along our faith journeys. And may God bless us all as we journey in peace.

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