$$ "Give to Get" Philosphy $$

[Melissash]

Someone started a thread about the “name it claim it” gospel……and it reminded me of my frustration with what I call the “give to get” preaching……slightly different so I thought I should start another thread. This is one of the reasons I am looking into Catholicism. I have heard a # of Pastors in person, on radio, and I have also read Christian writings on giving. Basically they all say the same thing. God owns everything, we are stewards, we are bad, to be good give more to me Pastor (insert name here) and God will bless you – they use verses out of Malachi (3:10 I think – the verses re: the storehouses overflowing). I **completely **agree that we are just stewards. What drives me crazy is the whole give to get philosophy. I would fall off my pew if I ever heard a Pastor talk about giving as **LOVE ****IN ******ACTION ****(novel ideal HUH). That it is the right thing to do!! Not what rewards we will get now or some calculated investment on what rewards we are earning in Heaven………but just doing the right thing because we should. Nothing is EVER mentioned about giving to the poor and needy……to really reach into our pockets to help the less fortunate. The focus is always on giving to the church and giving to get. I understand we need to support the church financially – that they have operating expenses to meet – I am not trying to find a loophole not to give……I just wish more emphasis was on Jesus’ teaching about giving to the poor because we should. It is just an insult to hear a Pastor talk down to his congregation this way – which the only reason we would give is to get. They reduce God to some Financial Planner and reduce our relationship with God as transactional. I would really appreciate (name removed by moderator)ut on what I just shared - from both the Protestants (was this one of your frustrations) and also from the Catholics (do the Priests push the give to get philosophy)? Thanks for listening………Melissa

 

[DadOf11]

Hi,

This is a good post. I can answer that at my current parish - our pastor there for the past 10+ years has never used the “give to get” line - and has always preached the “give because it is right” line. It was one of the reasons I became a stronger Catholic.

In general I don’t think that the “Health/Wealth” Gospel has much place in Catholic circles - or else all our saints would be fabulously wealthy without any physical problems, etc. Obviously a quick read of our saints shows THAT isn’t the case. Most were dirt poor and suffered horrible health hardships.

Heck, our Pastor even stopped parish fundraisers (for the most part) because he didn’t want to seem like we were “getting” things for our donations. If you have a bake sale - you are giving for the “bake sale goods” - not because you want to…etc. Granted - he would be OK with having a “bake sale” if the purpose was community building - or if the offering was not mandatory or a set price (someone could buy a cake for $100 for example) - wierd examples - but you maybe get the point. Never had I understood the reasons behind the “Health/Wealth” Gospel until I looked deeper into this alternative - and totally Catholic representation. The Catholic position (give because it is right - not because you are getting something) just seems 100% correct.

The pastor of which I spoke died the middle of this year and our new Pastor seems to be of the same vein. To me the “Health/Wealth” Gospel just seems like a totally Protestant invention “say Amen” - and is not really something that Catholics hear a lot of.

Does that fit with your experience?

God Bless!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

My church does not believe in the Health/wealth gospel message at all. I go to a non-denom conservative church. We do believe it is all God’s money and we are the stewards but God expects us to help the poor and needy because it is what God wants. We are taught that we should help because it Glorifies God. It is not about us at all. Yes we are doing the right thing but we just have to make sure our motivations are correct. Are we helping because it makes us feel better(probably)or are we doing it for God(hopefully).

Anyway, that is what we are taught. Just my :twocents:

 

[Tom]

One of the greatest homilies I have ever heard on giving was on our “stewardship drive” the annual money drive. The priest began in a startling way. He said this year I don’t want any of your money, I want you!
I want volunteers, we have outreach ministries that feed the poor, provide housing for the homeless… and on and on about each of the Church ministries.
Then he said he wanted volunteers, that if each of us, over 3,000 parishioners, gave just one hour per day we could serve the Lord and our fellow man so much.
Then he went on the guilt trip, surely one hour per day wasn’t too much to ask. After all it is for a great cause. Well, o.k., we all know you’re busy, so if you really can’t give an hour a day, how about what you earn for one hour a day? Not the ideal solution, after all he wants to see our bright shiney faces, but with the money they could hire someone to do the work.
Donation increased remarkably, so did volunteers.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Hi,

This is a good post. I can answer that at my current parish - our pastor there for the past 10+ years has never used the “give to get” line - and has always preached the “give because it is right” line. It was one of the reasons I became a stronger Catholic.

In general I don’t think that the “Health/Wealth” Gospel has much place in Catholic circles - or else all our saints would be fabulously wealthy without any physical problems, etc. Obviously a quick read of our saints shows THAT isn’t the case. Most were dirt poor and suffered horrible health hardships.

The pastor of which I spoke died the middle of this year and our new Pastor seems to be of the same vein. To me the “Health/Wealth” Gospel just seems like a totally Protestant invention “say Amen” - and is not really something that Catholics hear a lot of.

The problem is that health/wealth can be preached in a superstitious way, so that God will necessarily give as a reward for following HIm.

However if we merely say that prayers for material welfare are legitimate, and there is reasonable expectation that they will be answered, there is nothing wrong with it, though it isn’t a particularly elevating form of Christianity.

Most charitable activity, if truth be known, benefits the giver more than the recipient. People who work in crisis centres get a circle of friends and commerically valuable experience, the clients get a warm meal or a bed for the night but don’t have their underlying problems solved. There is nothing wrong with being aware of this. If a transaction is win-win, that’s better than lose-win, because it has more long-term potential.

 

[puzzleannie]

It is just an insult to hear a Pastor talk down to his congregation this way – which the only reason we would give is to get. They reduce God to some Financial Planner and reduce our relationship with God as transactional. I would really appreciate (name removed by moderator)ut on what I just shared - from both

absolutely spot on description, very good, you state precisely what is wrong in this thinking.

Catholics are criticized a lot for not tithing (I do a lot of that criticism myself), although not necessarily justly. Tithing used to be very big in my childhood, after WWII in the baby boom when churches and schools had to be built rapidly, and there was a lot of backlash against what was seen then (at least by my dad and his compadres) as a “Protestant” method of pledge cards, account notices, and plaques or other memorials for those who gave at specified levels.

Catholics seem to prefer the word “stewardship” which denotes a spirituality that acknowledges our complete poverty before God, complete trust in Divine Providence, and the Gospel mandate to make Christ’s priorities our own. This is a spirituality that fosters right attitude toward things, money, time, and talent.

 

[YADA]

God makes the “Rain to fall on the Just and the Unjust”

Our Jewish roots and the Hebrew texts we have in our Scriptures taken as a whole would not support a “Give to Get” theology…sort of. The Book of Job representing a good example of our struggle with just this application.

That said, we are called to support the work of the Church, which ultimately is “US”

We support the church with our Time Talent and Treasure. We support our parishes and our greater communities. The question then becomes how do we [as priests or pastors or church organizations - administrative councils for example] get the volunteers with time and talent plus the monetary means?

Another questions is how we [the people of God] allocate the blessings we have received [also known as resources - be they money, time and natural gifts]. And do we give [back to God] in proportion to what we receive [from God - as all things come from the creator]?

In my parish of 2000 plus registered; these are the statistics and they make feel like we don’t fully recognize the gift we receive each Sunday at Mass. ] My parish is one of the top 5 wealthiest parishes in the entire diocese. My parish supports many other charities, we do much to support the faith life of our parishioners and to help those less fortunate. However, we could do so much more. Be Christ to the world in a significant way.

NOTE: 5% of a $5.00 per hour wage is $520.00 per year or $10.00 per week.

700 families either did not give at all or did so without using a check or the envelopes.

Approximately 500 households gave $5.00 or less per week, 25% of the parish gave less than $5.00 per week.

117 gave less than $1.00 roughly 5%
387 gave between $1.00 and $5.00 roughly 20%

9% gave $6.00 to $10.00 per week
12% gave $11.00 to $20.00 per week
7% gave $21.00 to $30.00 per week
6% gave $31.00 to $60.00

only 56 families gave more than $61.00 per week - this represtents roughly 3%

How do you support your local church?

 

[Damascus]

I always wondered where the money was going in my former protestant life. We did not have nearly the amount of charity programs that my Catholic Church has. I wondered how or what we were doing to help the mother who wanted to give birth to her baby rather than abort, and a multitude of other needs in the world that go unnoticed. Sure, we had missionary work that needed funds to spread the good news to others but, I always wondered what we were doing in regard to the acute and actual physical needs of the poor. Yes, spiritual food is important but what about the feeding, clothing, and all that other stuff we are supposed to do? The programs that once and a while addressed that were usually only once a year at Thanksgiving and it was never made clear who benefitted from the drives. Were they given to everyone regardless of religious affiliation? Never knew. We were only told that in so and so Chruch they had needs as they were less fortunate, and that made me wonder about how that was biblical.

Just my experience, and in fact in my earlier non denominational days(pre Lutheran) the money we raised to send our pastor out to Russia to evangelize there ended up in him leaving his wife and 3 kids for a woman he met while in Russia who he took back with him. There went the neighborhood. Needless to say, many people left that church after that incident, myself included. Money well spent huh?

 

[Melissash]

Thanks to everyone who has responded. I want to share some more on this - but in the middle of work day so will share later.

Yada - you made really good points…

I don’t know what the answer is to get people to give more. I can just speak for myself ONLY - my giving is always dependent on my spiritual state. A few years ago - I did not give as much - but I was spiritually young…as I have grown and with the deepening of my faith becoming more important I have noticed a change in me. I am not as concerned with matieral things as I once was. Not that I am a saint - but better then I had been 5-10 years ago.

Someone asked how much I give to the church - I don’t feel comfortable saying - but I will say it is above most.

More Later - Melissa

 

[YADA]

fadica.org/documents/ParishDonorSurveyPDF.pdf

A link to a report I found while looking for current statistics on giving, interesting but not the comparison that I was looking for…

puzzelannie,

I agree that we hear “stewardship” and the concept is correct. However, we as Catholics don’t illustrate that we understand the concept in our practice. Catholics are among the least charitable in giving. We do great things with the amounts that we contribute and our charitable dollars are spent wisely [at least the charities that I support have minimal overhead - that is a major concern and criteria I use in my giving].

However, according to statistics as our [Catholic] economic demographics improved our level of giving remained stagnant at least the last statistics I saw on the issue. Episcopalians and non-denominational [sometimes referred to as fundamentalist] churches give at higher rates among our Christian brethren. Mormons also have a higher contribution rate. I am looking for current statistics…

We have the Eucharist, the fullness of the Christian faith we are fed each Mass with a heavenly feast…Our gift should average more than a Pizza dinner out or a couple of Starbucks coffees. At least one would think so…

 

[YADA]

Most caholic parishes have an administrative council and a pastoral council t assist the Pastor in these two areas. Some smaller parishes may have combined the two roles. This is in addition to the paid staff [in larger parishes like a business manager]

I a sure that the lay members of this board and your parish priest woud be happy to discuss the expenditures and the various ministries, programs and charitable causes you support with your weekly donations. All of this in addition to the utilties [lights, gas, water, sewer, phones], maintenance and up keep of the grounds, purchasing of consumables like: sacramnertal bread and wine, candles, missals, toilet paper, paper towels, cups, etc. Sacramental preparation for children, youth and adults, etc.