Giving Priests the Benefit of the Doubt

[YourNameHere]

Let us pray for our priests!

 

[DeniseNY]

It seems that at one time or another, we all have some frivolous complaint about something.

Someone once posted that a parishioner reported their pastor to the bishop because he wore brown shoes.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Someone called the Bishop on my Pastor because during the prayers of the faithful one of the petitions was that the Holy Spirit guide our government leaders to make decisions that benefit all of humanity (or something close).

It was reported because it was “overtly political” and "supportive of the terrible regime that has corrupted the “oval office”

Sometimes I really wonder about people.

 

[phil19034]

Those who watch EWTN,

This is a very uncharitable statement. There are PLENTY of people who watch EWTN (my mother included) who never question priests.

EWTN is a very orthodox and faithful channel. There is not a single program on EWTN that bashes Ordinary Form nor that is heretical.

Mother Angelica always spoke wonderfully of the actual documents from Vatican II. What she despised was the people who attempted to change the church by twisting Vatican II into something it wasn’t.

God bless

 

[phil19034]

Here’s a riddle for those who complain about liturgical abuses.

For some (especially from Latin-derived cultures), what’s not explicitly forbidden is permitted, for example priests adding a prayer here or there, or making a comment.

For others (especially from a Germanic background), what isn’t specifically allowed is forbidden.

Could it be that some “liturgical abuses” come from these two significant cultural differences?

I think this is true. I think SOME “liturgical abuse” is simply a clash between these two.

However, I do think there are others (WHICH ARE RARE) that are out of disobedience.

However, for me, 99 times out of 100; IF I get annoyed at Mass, it’s not because of something the priest says/does but rather something the music ministry sings or does.

 

[TheLittleLady]

People who go out of their way to consume “Catholic Media” are more likely to consider themselves as “aware” or “educated” about the details of liturgy, Canon law, doctrine, etc.

 

[phil19034]

People who go out of their way to consume “Catholic Media” are more likely to consider themselves as “aware” or “educated” about the details of liturgy, Canon law, doctrine, etc.

Watching EWTN does NOT require someone to go “out of their way.” The vast majority of people receive it on their cable TV.

My grandmother used to watch Mother Angelica every day (and often still does), but she wouldn’t consider herself educated about the details of the liturgy, Canon law, doctrine, etc.

Same with my mom.

So you are painting with a very wide brush when you talk about people who watch EWTN.

 

[phil19034]

People who go out of their way to consume “Catholic Media” are more likely to consider themselves as “aware” or “educated” about the details of liturgy, Canon law, doctrine, etc.

BTW - there are lot of “rad trads” who believe EWTN is too protestant… So no, I don’t think EWTN is a factor regarding why some people become “liturgy police.”

 

[TheLittleLady]

I am talking about people who make the effort to consume Catholic media. EWTN is the largest Catholic Television Network, so, they are part of Catholic media. Same for the National Catholic Register, the blogs of various famous Catholics, the twitter feeds of various apostolates, our hosts “Catholic Answers” programs, magazines, books, people who visit Catholic online forums.

People who are happy to sit in the pew and read the bulletin likely do not notice that the shades of purple for Advent and Lent are supposed to be different or know the specific words for Eucharistic Prayer #3.

Same goes for any other interest, people who watch, listen and read about politics are going to be the ones to notice if a politician makes a promise that is outside of the laws of the US.

 

[phil19034]

I am talking about people who make the effort to consume Catholic media. EWTN is the largest Catholic Television Network, so, they are part of Catholic media. Same for the National Catholic Register, the blogs of various famous Catholics, the twitter feeds of various apostolates, our hosts “Catholic Answers” programs, magazines, books, people who visit Catholic online forums.

People who are happy to sit in the pew and read the bulletin likely do not notice that the shades of purple for Advent and Lent are supposed to be different or know the specific words for Eucharistic Prayer #3.

Same goes for any other interest, people who watch, listen and read about politics are going to be the ones to notice if a politician makes a promise that is outside of the laws of the US.

OK, but you are putting the cart before the horse. People who notice these things are INTERESTED in the details.

Take me for example: When I was in college, I was the unofficial head of my fraternity’s ritual committee. Why? Because I loved and took great interest in every single detail of the initiation ritual. I concerned myself with precision timing, music to be used while waiting, colors of candles, what kind of candle holders to use, proper volume for music, how to symbolically tie our robes, how to behave while vested, etc, etc, etc.

Why, because those ritualist & symbolic details mean a great deal to me.

I also had my detailed rituals when playing sports. For example, on days I pitched when playing baseball, I always did the same things; when I dove for the diving team, I always did the same things to mentally and physically prepare for my dives.

Some people are very ritualistic and pay close attention to symbolism & details. These are TYPICALLY the people who are bothered by the littlest liturgical practice. You have others who consume a lot of Catholic Media would could care less about the type of music, etc an all they are focused on is praying.

So Catholic Media is not the reason. The reason for “liturgical police” is because these are the people who notice these little details because they notice them in ALL ritualistic activities (not just church) - whether it’s how to fold the American Flag, or how to hold your hands during mass.

God bless

 

[CilladeRoma]

ALL ritualistic activities (not just church) - whether it’s how to fold the American Flag, or how to hold your hands during mass.

The problem with this is that there IS a correct way to fold the flag.

As far as I know, there is no “correct” way to hold one’s hands in prayer.

Ritual is a good thing, I agree, but when we put ritual above charity, there is a big problem.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

ALL ritualistic activities (not just church) - whether it’s how to fold the American Flag, or how to hold your hands during mass.

The problem with this is that there IS a correct way to fold the flag.

As far as I know, there is no “correct” way to hold one’s hands in prayer.

Ritual is a good thing, I agree, but when we put ritual above charity, there is a big problem.

1. I’m not referring to “correct way” to fold the flag, I’m referring to the ritual of folding the flag by a color guard. I.E. How many cannon fires, how to pivot, how to “parade rest”
2. in regards to “correct way” to hold hands, I’m referring to the priests and altar servers… where they are told to have their palms together, with fingers together and straight, with right thumb over left thumb. While this isn’t “required,” it is ritualistic… just like when servers all all kneel at the same time.

My point is that some people are very into those kinds of ritualist details.

Ritual is a good thing, I agree, but when we put ritual above charity, there is a big problem.

And yes, I agree with your on this point.

 

[MikeInVA]

Why is it such a big issue to you?

As I said, it is a small detail, yet the priest deliberately chooses to change the wording every time he says Mass. It’s like a musiscian who deliberately hits the wrong key on the piano in the same place every time he plays a song.

 

[YourNameHere]

As an umpire once said to me at a baseball game, “If you think you can do better, become an umpire.”
On the other hand, you could just attend a Mass celebrated by a different priest.

 

[MikeInVA]

I am not called to the priesthood, but I don’t think that should mean that I have to accept anything a priest decides to ad-lib. Also, I don’t believe in cherry picking which Mass I go to based on the celebrant.

 

[YourNameHere]

So, the only way you will be happy is for someone to reprimand the priest who is annoying you. Wow, you sound a wee bit judgmental to me. Judge not lest ye be judged, Mike.
I like the priest at my parish. I do not hang on every word that he utters. I feel like I am getting the just of what he is trying to say. But that is me.
But, I am not sure if you would care for the way the priest at my parish does things or says things either.
I will pray for you. And will pray for your priest. May God bless you both! Amen

 

[Brendea]

I have noticed more recently since our priest left us and we’ve been having different priests every week that the mass is different from 1 week to the next some weeks it’s 30 minutes some weeks it’s an hour, every priest has his own way of doing things ( we even got one priest flowen in from Auckland a 9 hour car drive away and he was amazing)
We are very lucky however to still be able to get a priest in our area and it would be difficult for relief priests ( there’s 3 churches they say mass in on a regular basis here one here 1 30 minutes away and 1 an hour away and if it’s the 4th Sunday of the month one an hour and a half away) as well serving the 2 Catholic schools and the weddings, funerals etc etc . So I do understand it can be tiring for an older priest especially when they are travelling themselves to get here
( I find it hard enough to get to confession/ reconcilliation at the moment beacuse while it’s here on a Wednesday night by the time I finish work and take the kids to scouts I’ve missed it ( we have 1 scout leader here and to keep it running parents have to volunteer every week )
And going early to mass doesn’t help beacuse one mass starts at 9 and straight after that the priest is rushing off to another mass and can quite often end up being late himself
So if bits are missing or mass seems a little rushed or things are done differently I like to give the priest the benefit of the doubt It’s not fair to single out a priest and complain about small things like using hand sanitizer or swapping out the creed for baptismal promises I’ve come to the conclusion that some of the priests just do things differently

 

[JohnLilburne]

Regarding hands. From Ceremonial of Bishops, Part 1 General Considerations, Chapter 4 General Norms, Section V Position of the Hands:

“Joined Hands
107 Unless the bishop is holding the pastoral staff, he keeps his hands joined: [Footnote 80: “Hands joined” means: “Holding the palms sideward and together before the breast, with the right thumb crossed over the left” (Ceremonial Episcoporum, ed. 1886, I, XIX, 1).] when, vested, he walks in procession for the celebration of a liturgy; when he is kneeling in prayer; when he moves from altar to chair or from chair to altar; when the liturgical books prescribe joined hands.
Similarly, concelebrants and ministers keep their hands joined when walking from place to place or when standing, unless they are holding something.”

[Excerpt from the English translation of Ceremonial of Bishops © 1989, International Commission on English in the Liturgy Corporation. All rights reserved. The book’s ISBN is 0814618189 ]

 

[CRV]

The Mass does not serve the priest. The priest is the servant of the Mass. It is not his to change/add/remove parts as he wishes. Chapter 1 #24
“24. These adaptations consist for the most part in the choice of certain rites or texts, that is, of the chants, readings, prayers, explanations, and gestures which may respond better to the needs, preparation, and culture of the participants and which are entrusted to the priest celebrant., the priest must remember that he is the servant of the sacred Liturgy and that he himself is not permitted, on his own initiative, to add, to remove, or to change anything in the celebration of Mass.[34]” (#34 Cf. Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium , no. 22.) Bold is my own emphasis

Sacrosanctum concilium
"22. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.

1. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
2. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority."

Redemptionis Sacramentum On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist
[4.] “Certainly the liturgical reform inaugurated by the Council has greatly contributed to a more conscious, active and fruitful participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar on the part of the faithful.”[10] Even so, “shadows are not lacking”.[11] In this regard it is not possible to be silent about the abuses, even quite grave ones, against the nature of the Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as the tradition and the authority of the Church, which in our day not infrequently plague liturgical celebrations in one ecclesial environment or another. In some places the perpetration of liturgical abuses has become almost habitual, a fact which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease.

In the document Redemptionis Sacramentum linked to above the following points # 48, 77, 171-175 inclusive are worth reading ETA #179, 180,183,184

 

[CRV]

From Redemptionis Sacramentum
" 6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism. (Bold emphasis is mine)

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity."