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kim3260
Guest
I would think the Unity Candle would be very appropiate
the two becoming one. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems fitting for a Cathoilc Marriage.
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the two becoming one. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems fitting for a Cathoilc Marriage.
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
Yes. And there is no “who gives this woman” in the Catholic marriage rite. As far as I know, there never has been.
The same goes for “…speak now or forever hold your peace.” The banns are traditionally published well before the wedding.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
It’s a Protestant invention.I would think the Unity Candle would be very appropiate
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
Someone (maybe you?) has asserted in several threads that the vow to “obey” was never a part of the marriage rite. What I’m interested in is the “never” part and a source for that. It would really be helpful to me.
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lotusblossom
Guest
deb1,
No, my husband is not a Southern boy, but it seemed a respectful thing to do and honestly, is very popular amongst my Catholic peers.
We already knew we had my dad’s approval, and even if we didn’t, we would have married, but it was almost like the thought was put into words. It helped my dad and him bond a little too since both are quiet and shy people. Plus, it was more of a bridge between being protected and taken care of by my dad to being protected and cared for by my husband. All previous boys (not men, because I didn’t date through most of my college years and all were in high school) that I dated would have never thought of asking my dad, because they had minimal contact with him and were scared of my father (he’s 6’5" - I’m 5’2" and quiet, so he seems intimidating) and honestly did not hold that respect for him. In fact, I asked my dad if he wanted my husband to ask for his permission and he said, “no” but my mom interjected and told him to let him do it, because she thought it was very thoughtful. Okay, so that’s the long story of why my husband asked permission .
Also, in reply to other posts, we did not have a Unity Candle either. I felt that it was not necessary to add it and instead we added in a Litany of the Saints, to ask for their intercession on our marriage. I have seen very few (only one actually besides seeing my parents’ pictures of their wedding) unity candles in Catholic weddings.
No, my husband is not a Southern boy, but it seemed a respectful thing to do and honestly, is very popular amongst my Catholic peers.
We already knew we had my dad’s approval, and even if we didn’t, we would have married, but it was almost like the thought was put into words. It helped my dad and him bond a little too since both are quiet and shy people. Plus, it was more of a bridge between being protected and taken care of by my dad to being protected and cared for by my husband. All previous boys (not men, because I didn’t date through most of my college years and all were in high school) that I dated would have never thought of asking my dad, because they had minimal contact with him and were scared of my father (he’s 6’5" - I’m 5’2" and quiet, so he seems intimidating) and honestly did not hold that respect for him. In fact, I asked my dad if he wanted my husband to ask for his permission and he said, “no” but my mom interjected and told him to let him do it, because she thought it was very thoughtful. Okay, so that’s the long story of why my husband asked permission .Also, in reply to other posts, we did not have a Unity Candle either. I felt that it was not necessary to add it and instead we added in a Litany of the Saints, to ask for their intercession on our marriage. I have seen very few (only one actually besides seeing my parents’ pictures of their wedding) unity candles in Catholic weddings.
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1ke
Guest
If you are asserting that “obey” was contained in the Catholic Marriage Rite, then I think the burden is on you to produce the rite that contained it.
“Obey” in the wedding vows was originated by King Henry VIII in the Church Of England’s Book of Common Prayer.
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
It wasn’t me. I don’t know much about wedding vow history, except that stuck-on components like having the bride’s father escort her, the unity candle, and taking flowers over to the Marian altar have been pretty much the norm, differing from one area to another. It would seem that somebody is always adding something like that. That doesn’t make it an official part of the rite. It got to the point, though, where some parishes and dioceses put strict limits on what could be added, some banning the unity candle altogether.
As far as I know, the Catholic marriage rite has two necessary components:
The part where the couple publicly acknowledges key points regarding whether they know what they’re getting into, such as being willing to welcome children, and so on, and state that they come freely willing and freely able to marry.
The part where the vows are exchanged. The bride and groom do it, but generally in a “repeat after me” format, because so few people think they’ll be able to remember their own first name at the altar, even given the first three letters. This is the “I, Name, take you, Name…” part. This is when the rings are exchanged, too, but as far as I know, that is optional. I have never been to a Catholic wedding in which the bride and groom did not exchange identical vows, so I don’t know how “obey” would have ever fit into that. As I said, though, I don’t know the full history of the rite.
Also, the Church usually adds a nuptial blessing afterward, which in my lifetime has fallen somewhere during the Communion Rite at a nuptial Mass. At that point, though, the couple is fully married. The marriage would be valid without it.
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kim3260
Guest
Thanks I did not know, we never did it but many relatives(Catholics) in other States have. I live in the Bible Belt so I really did not know if it was Catholic or not.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
I don’t care for the add-ons such as the ones that BLB_Oregon suggested, for a lot of reasons. However, if someone was planning a wedding between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, and the unity candle was something practiced in the non-Catholic’s church I would have less of a problem with it. I would expect there would be a blending of customs.
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Mom_of_5
Guest
For what it’s worth, I will tell you how the marriage ceremony was for Catholic weddings I attended. “Obey” was ALWAYS a part of the ceremony. I’ve never been to a Catholic wedding where the bride was not given away by her father or some relative. I can’t remember if the words “who gives this bride in marriage” were said, but by the mere act of taking the bride to meet her intended was sufficient to get the message. The bride goes to her husband leaving her parents behind. The unity candle, whether it is a protestant invention or not, is a beautiful tradition. NOT ALL protestant “inventions” are bad and disgusting. We would be delighted to have “protestants” take on some of our tradition. Lets stop saying all things protestant, re: unity candles,music, etc. are disgusting and bad and don’t fit the GRIM. We can learn from our brothers and sisters in Christ and they from us. Common sense, folks, goes a loooooong way!!
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
Love and peace,
Mom of 5
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
Simmer down, little bobcat. I don’t think anyone on this thread said these things were disgusting or bad, just not a part of the rite. I said that some were a turn-off; I don’t care for them. I did not say, nor do I think, they are disgusting or bad.
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
Where did the “obey” part come in, in your recollection? I was quite sure that the bride and groom’s vows were identical.
Mind you, my husband was the one who didn’t like the idea of “obey” in the vows. As things turned out, there is a lot of obeying on my end!
Remember that “obedience”, whether to a spouse, a religious superior, or to God, comes from the Latin meaning “to listen to”. In the case of a wife, she might listen and do as she is told or she might listen, reflect, and have a comment to make in way of prophetic challenge. Likewise, Benedict allowed that monks may have some respectful feedback to give to an abbot. Obedience isn’t slavery, even obedience to God. In God, service is always freely given, and given in love.Also, there are those who object to the “giving away” part because it harkens back to a time when a daughter was some kind of high-upkeep chattel that you had to send off with a bunch of loot (aka a dowry) in order to get someone to take her off of your hands. Never mind what the reality was–I’m not looking for a lecture on whether the bride or the groom owned the dowry or how much choice either the bride or the groom had in spousal selection or any of that–but that is the impression some people have.
As you say, though, there are other people who like the idea precisely because they want the parents to go through the ritual of recognizing that their children now have a new primary family. I have seen, in modern weddings, the practice of both the bride and groom being given away!
The irony of all this, of course, is in the old saying:
A son is a son until he takes a wife, but a daughter is a daughter all of her life.
So much for giving her away!
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BlestOne
Guest
Deb,
When I got married last year the priest explained it this way to us…
The Catholic Church has always believed that the sacrament of matrimony has to be with a man and a woman with free consent to give themselves to each other. For that reason we DISCOURAGE the bridal procession with the father “giving” his daughter away. We prefer that the bride and the groom process up the aisle together to give themselves freely to each other.
Also…my pet peeve…the unity candle…yuck!!! OK…you have the mother of the bride and the groom light a candle…then the bride and groom light the center candle from those candles… I get the whole symbolism thing… I just didn’t think it was appropriate. I ticked off my mom because one of the nuns where she works made a unity candle for us and I didn’t use it. First off…my mom and his mom didn’t have a say on our marriage. Second… DH’s entire family isn’t Catholic…(and some of them hate Catholics), so putting my mom and his mom together…not a good idea. Then, to boot…DH’s mom is very very agoraphobic. This was just an all around no win situation. There was no way she would even come to the wedding if she had to get up in front of people and light a candle. Heck…half his family about croaked when I brought a bouquet of roses to the Holy Family and prayed…OMGOSH!!! I thought they were gonna have a cow right there!!! Thank God we took the time to explain the whole communion thing to them ahead of time.
When I got married last year the priest explained it this way to us…
The Catholic Church has always believed that the sacrament of matrimony has to be with a man and a woman with free consent to give themselves to each other. For that reason we DISCOURAGE the bridal procession with the father “giving” his daughter away. We prefer that the bride and the groom process up the aisle together to give themselves freely to each other.
Also…my pet peeve…the unity candle…yuck!!! OK…you have the mother of the bride and the groom light a candle…then the bride and groom light the center candle from those candles… I get the whole symbolism thing… I just didn’t think it was appropriate. I ticked off my mom because one of the nuns where she works made a unity candle for us and I didn’t use it. First off…my mom and his mom didn’t have a say on our marriage. Second… DH’s entire family isn’t Catholic…(and some of them hate Catholics), so putting my mom and his mom together…not a good idea. Then, to boot…DH’s mom is very very agoraphobic. This was just an all around no win situation. There was no way she would even come to the wedding if she had to get up in front of people and light a candle. Heck…half his family about croaked when I brought a bouquet of roses to the Holy Family and prayed…OMGOSH!!! I thought they were gonna have a cow right there!!! Thank God we took the time to explain the whole communion thing to them ahead of time.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
OK, here is the old form of the rite on Fisheaters:
fisheaters.com/holymatrimony.html
You’ll have to slide down to the center to see the vows as they used to be. Note: No “obey”. I’m not saying you didn’t hear “obey” but the word was never a part of the vows.
I am having a rough way to go finding the present version online, but there were only 2 choices of vows when we married: The “old” one (no obey) and the current one: “I, N., take you, NN, to be my wife/ husband. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will honor and cherish you all the days of my life.”
fisheaters.com/holymatrimony.html
You’ll have to slide down to the center to see the vows as they used to be. Note: No “obey”. I’m not saying you didn’t hear “obey” but the word was never a part of the vows.
I am having a rough way to go finding the present version online, but there were only 2 choices of vows when we married: The “old” one (no obey) and the current one: “I, N., take you, NN, to be my wife/ husband. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will honor and cherish you all the days of my life.”
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agapewolf
Guest
The actual instructions say that the bride and groom walk together in a liturgical procession (think of Sunday…those involved process…servers, priest, deacon, sometimes lector).
It also allows for cultural differences (one being the father walking with the bride).
As far as the unity candle goes…this is a TERRIBLE hallmark invention and is NO WAY catholic. Some priests won’t allow it. THink theology of the body: the actual union and consumation HAPPENS at the Eucharist. that is the unity there…no need to symbolize it with a fluffy candle.
I tell the couples I help prepare this: If you are going to Disneyland…and you see a sign that says 10 miles to disneyland…you wouldn’t get out of the car, and decorate the sign and take pictures and waste time there…instead you would go straight to disneyland.
It also allows for cultural differences (one being the father walking with the bride).
As far as the unity candle goes…this is a TERRIBLE hallmark invention and is NO WAY catholic. Some priests won’t allow it. THink theology of the body: the actual union and consumation HAPPENS at the Eucharist. that is the unity there…no need to symbolize it with a fluffy candle.
I tell the couples I help prepare this: If you are going to Disneyland…and you see a sign that says 10 miles to disneyland…you wouldn’t get out of the car, and decorate the sign and take pictures and waste time there…instead you would go straight to disneyland.
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KaiteK
Guest
I was looking for them and found them at this site. Now mind you it’s run by a former priest who claims to still do valid weddings, but he seems very attached to “the rules” if you will. His site had three different options listed for approved vows. And “obey” doesn’t occur in any of them.
I (…), take you (…) to be my (…). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.
I (…), take you (…) for my lawful (…), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part.
In the name of God, I (…) take you (…) to be my (…), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, until we are parted by death. This is my solemn vow.
I’ve never heard the third one before, but if it is an option I’d kind of like to use that one.
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BLB_Oregon
Guest
What very often* is* in the nuptial Mass is St. Paul’s epistle in which husbands are admonished to love their wives and wives are charged to be submissive to their husbands. In that case, the message is there, just not in the vows. Maybe that is where she always heard it.
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Mom_of_5
Guest
BLB Oregon…
To answer your question…“Do you promise to love, honor and obey, until death do you part”. I talked to my sisters, they said this was also in their vows. All of us were married 40 or more years ago, in the Catholic Church. I don’t know who to go to to “prove” this, other than those of us who said our vows like this. We didn’t like the “obey” thing, but it was there. We also were counseled in our pre-marital classes, that the wife could never refuse marital relations to our husband for any reason, even if it meant death to the wife. Makes me wonder why any of us girls were brave enough to walk down the aisle, on the arm of our father, who handed us over to our new husband.
Love and peace, Mom of 5
To answer your question…“Do you promise to love, honor and obey, until death do you part”. I talked to my sisters, they said this was also in their vows. All of us were married 40 or more years ago, in the Catholic Church. I don’t know who to go to to “prove” this, other than those of us who said our vows like this. We didn’t like the “obey” thing, but it was there. We also were counseled in our pre-marital classes, that the wife could never refuse marital relations to our husband for any reason, even if it meant death to the wife. Makes me wonder why any of us girls were brave enough to walk down the aisle, on the arm of our father, who handed us over to our new husband.
Love and peace, Mom of 5
O
OldAgeGuru
Guest
The way I read that would have made a wedding a lot more interesting and a lot less family friendly!
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