Giving to beggars

[Magicsilence]

If I am not mistaken, were there not saints who raised money by begging for alms?

Here in London, beggars can try to make money by selling magazines from which they take a % of the profit, but they have to register and have ID produced so that they are official.

I see no wrong in giving them a little extra money

 

[pentecostbaby]

If they ask me for something, it’s my duty to give it if I have it. Like an earlier poster said, if they spend the money on alcohol or drugs, that’s between them and God. What if they really are hungry?
I’ve yet to have a negative experience with giving food, rather than money, to homeless people.
Generalizing about the homeless, too - that none of them want to work, that all of them want to spend money on drugs - is as dangerous and evil as racism. Some are certainly con men - but we’re called to think the best of people, like God does, not the worst of them, like Satan.
Where would we all be if God decided not to give us things, because we’d just screw it up anyway?

 

[TheDoctor]

If they ask me for something, it’s my duty to give it if I have it. Like an earlier poster said, if they spend the money on alcohol or drugs, that’s between them and God. What if they really are hungry?..but we’re called to think the best of people, like God does, not the worst of them, like Satan.
Where would we all be if God decided not to give us things, because we’d just screw it up anyway?

Using this line of reasoning in general (and please I am NOT making a personal judgement on Pentecostbaby), if I saw a pregnant woman begging for money for an abortion outside a Planned Parenthood clinic, would I be justified in giving it to her because what she does with the money is between her and God? I would respectfully say, “no”. I bear a responsibility for my actions, and that includes, at least to me, the actions of giving others money and what I can reasonably expect them to do with that money.

 

[LilyM]

Lily,

I think you are missing the point of that story.

$13/hr cash is a good wage. The panhandler could make more begging, so didn’t want to do honest work.

God Bless

I beg to differ. When a worker earns less than the average beggar, then by definition their wage is NOT a good one.

See, a GOOD wage is one which encourages people to work, by making it more worthile to do so than not. A good wage is not merely one which just about enables people to keep body and soul together. And I doubt that $13 an hour in the US, or anywhere in the Western world, would do much more than that.

 

[mammallama]

Using this line of reasoning in general (and please I am NOT making a personal judgement on Pentecostbaby), if I saw a pregnant woman begging for money for an abortion outside a Planned Parenthood clinic, would I be justified in giving it to her because what she does with the money is between her and God? I would respectfully say, “no”. I bear a responsibility for my actions, and that includes, at least to me, the actions of giving others money and what I can reasonably expect them to do with that money.

Maybe the woman is just obese
maybe she really is pregnant and has decided against an abortion and needs bus fare?
In your hypothetical situation you automatically assume the worst
without speaking to her?You don’t try to convince her not to get an abortion if she is indeed there for that reason?

 

[TheDoctor]

Maybe the woman is just obese
maybe she really is pregnant and has decided against an abortion and needs bus fare?
In your hypothetical situation you automatically assume the worst
without speaking to her?You don’t try to convince her not to get an abortion if she is indeed there for that reason?

I believe I originally said that she was specifically asking for money for an abortion. My point is that in that case, I presume no Catholic would give her the money - just as I hope no Catholic would give to a begger who said they wanted money for drugs or alcohol.

What I am asking us to consider is the foreseeable reasonable use of our money. I’ll admit the example I put up is open for debate but I only used it as an extreme example (PS - yes, after 21 years of marriage I can tell the difference between pregnant and obese - hey, it’s a gift).

I come from a family involved with Law Enforcement and I have worked for the Social Security Administration so I know something of what goes on “behind the scenes”. If I see someone with track marks on their arms from shooting up (very visible in the summer in NYC) and they want money I don’t know for sure that they will use it to buy drugs but I will bet my paycheck against yours they will and I will be right most of the time. I also know that they know where to go for a free meal, a free bed or help so they don’t have to beg.

My point is not to discourage anyone helping anyone less fortunate but to remind us that we bear some responsibility for what is done with our money. God calls us to be good stewards of the gifts he gives us.

Sorry if this comes off a little harsh, it was not meant to be.

 

[IrishAm]

I believe I originally said that she was specifically asking for money for an abortion.

Okay, I’ll give you that. And if a beggar asked for money for drugs I would not give either. But that is different from assuming how they will put the money to use. Again, I believe I am blessed in being given an opportunity to give to Lazarus, and I will seize that blessing with a dollar and a prayer.

 

[rpp]

I beg to differ. When a worker earns less than the average beggar, then by definition their wage is NOT a good one.

See, a GOOD wage is one which encourages people to work, by making it more worthile to do so than not. A good wage is not merely one which just about enables people to keep body and soul together. And I doubt that $13 an hour in the US, or anywhere in the Western world, would do much more than that.

I am afraid I would have to disagree. Using my brother’s $2,000 a day as the standard, which I do believe is unrealistic, if they did this 5 days a week for 48 weeks a year, they would have earned $480,000 a year, tax free! But if they sit on their bum and only panhandle 2 days a month, they would earn $24,000 a year tax free. That is the equivalent to a $40,000 a year job before taxes (in the USA).

Of course perhaps the beggar is not as, um, er, skilled as my brother. Perhaps he only get $500 a day. That still the $120,000 tax free income, the equivalent of a $200,000 salary before taxes (in the USA) for hold a sign with the lie “will work for food” scrawled on it for a few hours a day.

No, just because many of these beggars make more than many of us does not mean that we make a poor living.

Another poster made a valid point. We cannot just presume that these people are lazy or alcoholic or drug-addicted or whatever. Clearly some are, but others are having a bad run of luck or have succumbed to the bad economy or suffer, and I mean suffer, from some mental or physical disability that renders them unable to hold a job. The problem is when you see that arm stretching out you with a cup in it, you do not know which category the person falls into. Are you really helping a person in need or are you helping a person who “needs” another hit of crack?

That is why we must support social organizations. They can use that same money and help more people with. Which is exactly what I do.

One closing story. Not long ago, my mother recently learned (it took her nearly 3 decades for her to accept the truth) that my homeless brother, who is a constant source of great heartache for her, smokes marijuana habitually. A few weeks ago, he called and asked for a couple of hundred dollars. I tried to talk her out of it but she agreed. I came home the next day and she told me what she had done. She donated the agreed amount of money to the Oregon Food bank, called my brother and told him that he can go the food bank instead. He was not happy.

 

[mammallama]

I believe I originally said that she was specifically asking for money for an abortion. My point is that in that case, I presume no Catholic would give her the money - just as I hope no Catholic would give to a begger who said they wanted money for drugs or alcohol.

What I am asking us to consider is the foreseeable reasonable use of our money. I’ll admit the example I put up is open for debate but I only used it as an extreme example (PS - yes, after 21 years of marriage I can tell the difference between pregnant and obese - hey, it’s a gift).

I come from a family involved with Law Enforcement and I have worked for the Social Security Administration so I know something of what goes on “behind the scenes”. If I see someone with track marks on their arms from shooting up (very visible in the summer in NYC) and they want money I don’t know for sure that they will use it to buy drugs but I will bet my paycheck against yours they will and I will be right most of the time. I also know that they know where to go for a free meal, a free bed or help so they don’t have to beg.

My point is not to discourage anyone helping anyone less fortunate but to remind us that we bear some responsibility for what is done with our money. God calls us to be good stewards of the gifts he gives us.

Sorry if this comes off a little harsh, it was not meant to be.

In your scenario you do not give money to a woman who needs $ for an abortion as of course abortion is a sin.OK I would not give her money only if I knew for a fact that she was using it for that reason.I’m sorry,I misread your post:doh2:

I was a welfare caseworker for 20 some years so I’m no push-over either.I’m just comfortable talking to druggies,alcoholics,homeless guys,who ever…don’t make no never mind to me.Maybe the “beggars” out here are different than ones elsewhere.

 

[TheDoctor]

In your scenario you do not give money to a woman who needs $ for an abortion as of course abortion is a sin.OK I would not give her money only if I knew for a fact that she was using it for that reason.I’m sorry,I misread your post:doh2:

I was a welfare caseworker for 20 some years so I’m no push-over either.I’m just comfortable talking to druggies,alcoholics,homeless guys,who ever…don’t make no never mind to me.Maybe the “beggars” out here are different than ones elsewhere.

I am always so torn by this issue, especially when I am out with the kids. I want them to see my love for Jesus in my actions, but I also want them to see the world as it is. I realized during this thread that the one thing I don’t do is to pray for those in the grip of addictions or hardship. I will rectify that tonight.

Welfare caseworker for 20 years? What sorrows you must have seen and experienced and how many truly needy you must have helped. I am proud just to be on the same forums as you.

 

[royal_archer]

If they ask me for something, it’s my duty to give it if I have it. Like an earlier poster said, if they spend the money on alcohol or drugs, that’s between them and God. What if they really are hungry?
I’ve yet to have a negative experience with giving food, rather than money, to homeless people.
Generalizing about the homeless, too - that none of them want to work, that all of them want to spend money on drugs - is as dangerous and evil as racism. Some are certainly con men - but we’re called to think the best of people, like God does, not the worst of them, like Satan.
Where would we all be if God decided not to give us things, because we’d just screw it up anyway?

I don’t think those on this thread are saying not to help as much as we are discussing how to help in a possitive way that does not cause more harm.

 

[royal_archer]

In your scenario you do not give money to a woman who needs $ for an abortion as of course abortion is a sin.OK I would not give her money only if I knew for a fact that she was using it for that reason.I’m sorry,I misread your post:doh2:

I was a welfare caseworker for 20 some years so I’m no push-over either.I’m just comfortable talking to druggies,alcoholics,homeless guys,who ever…don’t make no never mind to me.Maybe the “beggars” out here are different than ones elsewhere.

There were stories of Katrina victims causing harm to those who took them in. When that guy in baggy clothes walks up to your car how do you know they do not intend to car jack you? Let’s face it you are putting yourself in danger by dealing with these strangers. Now I myself am not worried about my health and safety but if I do something stupid and do not come home I put my wife and kids in danger. In the past I have thought about opening my home up to someone in need since we have a spare bedroom and can easily fit a couple extra mouths at the dinner table. But since the Katrina incidents and other incidents my wife won’t let me. Instead we have started giving to those around us who we know are in true need.

 

[mammallama]

There were stories of Katrina victims causing harm to those who took them in. When that guy in baggy clothes walks up to your car how do you know they do not intend to car jack you? Let’s face it you are putting yourself in danger by dealing with these strangers.

I get this feeling that many people here are from larger metropolitan areas than mine.Closest town to me has about 200,000 metro population.That’s where I used to work and still go to shop,Dr appt etc.They have their fair share of the usual suspects but overall probably lower crime rate than others towns of similar size.

 

[whatevergirl]

The city I live in has its fair share of beggars. In fact my college university always has at least two or more of them sitting outside the entrances of the school and usually they’re either really old folks or kids who look younger than ten.

As much as I’ve heard Catholic teachings about being charitable and everything… I don’t give these people a single cent. I ignore them.

I’m sorry, it’s just that from my experiences and from what I’ve been taught about the mentality of these people, I’ve heard that giving money to them will only make things worse. Heck my parents go as far as to say it’ll just make them lazy.

Although I don’t think it feels right to agree with them completely, I cannot deny the fact that most of the beggars I’ve seen have never really done anything else but to raise their hands (or cups) to every passerby. I also cannot deny the fact that every time I see some of the more teenage ones they always seem to be carrying children with them when the beg from vehicles during a red light. Are they really their children or is this some form of pity tactic? I don’t really know anymore…

Am I wrong to think like this towards these beggars? I mean, I don’t wanna be a miser and all but I don’t wanna be leeched on either. This has really been buggin’ me lately.

Hi LostWanderer;

We are given a brain and Holy Spirit to guide us in making wise decisions…and discern what charities we should give to. My husband does not give money to pan handlers, etc…he believes that they will just buy drugs, booze, etc…but if someone is living on the street, asking me for a buck…I can’t say no, if I truly have it on me. My reason is that this person is so down and out, what does it matter how he/she got there? We don’t know for certain if they will buy drugs or alcohol with it. I believe that Jesus wants us to give in these situations, and let Him sort it all out after that. Now, if 20 panhandlers come up to me at one time, there’s only so much to go around. But, if there is someone standing on the corner…who really looks so down and out, lost and broken…I personally fail to see why it would matter as to how they got there, or what they might do with the dollar they’re asking for.

I heard a stat that like 85% of homeless people are addicts of either alcohol or drugs. I really like Light of Life Ministries, and others like it who not only give these people shelter and food, but allow them to stay for a month or so…to get sober, and find work.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi LostWanderer;

We are given a brain and Holy Spirit to guide us in making wise decisions…and discern what charities we should give to. My husband does not give money to pan handlers, etc…he believes that they will just buy drugs, booze, etc…but if someone is living on the street, asking me for a buck…I can’t say no, if I truly have it on me. My reason is that this person is so down and out, what does it matter how he/she got there? We don’t know for certain if they will buy drugs or alcohol with it. I believe that Jesus wants us to give in these situations, and let Him sort it all out after that. Now, if 20 panhandlers come up to me at one time, there’s only so much to go around. But, if there is someone standing on the corner…who really looks so down and out, lost and broken…I personally fail to see why it would matter as to how they got there, or what they might do with the dollar they’re asking for.

I heard a stat that like 85% of homeless people are addicts of either alcohol or drugs. I really like Light of Life Ministries, and others like it who not only give these people shelter and food, but allow them to stay for a month or so…to get sober, and find work.

… …

Denying the poor and broken in any way - the impoverished materially and/or spiritually - is not going to change things. To give without judgement and prayerfully in the hope that their dire circumstances will somehow be overcome, will do something for sure…for no prayer goes unanswered. Of course, I may deny the poor my dollar for some ‘righteous’? reason and still pray for them too and that prayer equally will do good, for no prayer goes unanswered.

But The Lord has told us “judge not, that you may not be judged”. Hence if I judge another unworthy of my dollar???

We are all sinners…only the nature of our sin differs. Is my sin more worthy of forgiveness than that of the other?..have I the right to ask of The Lord His Mercy on my own sinfulness, while refusing Mercy on that other?
If a discerning attitude leads me to deny another my dollar or dollars fearing it will be used to harmful purpoess to that other, then if I deny my dollar or dollars on that basis, then I need to be very humble about it indeed! “Judge not that you may not be judged” …aware with great humility that I am on shaky ground indeed and that my denial of my dollar may be far more serious, though done with a discerning attitude, “to whom much is given, much will be expected”. We do most often perhaps, though, strive to make our refusal justified and righteous…casting an aspersion of sin and self harm, exploitation etc. on the other …and this is reminiscent of the parable of the Publican and The Sinner - I am ‘right up the front’ telling God how right and justified I am and not like all these beggars who have brought it all on themselves and are only trying to rip others off/use donations for wrongful and harmful purposes.

 

[royal_archer]

… …

…and this is reminiscent of the parable of the Publican and The Sinner - I am ‘right up the front’ telling God how right and justified I am and not like all these beggars who have brought it all on themselves and are only trying to rip others off/use donations for wrongful and harmful purposes.

I would not be so concerned about the booze as much as the overall lesson. Give 'em a fish vs teach 'em to fish. Most of our Federal budget goes to various types of welfare/ Social programs. If someone is in need there are opportunities for them to get what they need. There is no need for them to be begging. Rewarding this activity is not doing them any favors in the long run. This is not because I look down on them but because I see thema s equals with much more potential than they seem to see in themselves.

 

[Cari]

This is not because I look down on them but because I see thema s equals with much more potential than they seem to see in themselves.

I find this statement disingenuous from someone who had just posted:

There were stories of Katrina victims causing harm to those who took them in. When that guy in baggy clothes walks up to your car how do you know they do not intend to car jack you? Let’s face it you are putting yourself in danger by dealing with these strangers. Now I myself am not worried about my health and safety but if I do something stupid and do not come home I put my wife and kids in danger. In the past I have thought about opening my home up to someone in need since we have a spare bedroom and can easily fit a couple extra mouths at the dinner table. But since the Katrina incidents and other incidents my wife won’t let me. Instead we have started giving to those around us who we know are in true need.

Assuming “that guy in the baggy clothes” is going to carjack you, or to quote some vague “Katrina” stories as the reason you won’t open up your home hardly seems to be “seeing them as equals” (emphasis mine) or finding more potential in them than they see themselves.

I’m not trying to single you out to be vicious, but only to drive home my previous point- for a group of people who, I am assuming, would defend the Church against the actions of a few, some people on this thread are sure willing to take undocumented statistics, vague government reports, and friend-of-a-friend stories as justification for selecting just who Jesus meant when He spoke of “the least of these”.

Giving money away to everyone who asks for it isn’t the solution, either (I can’t seem to recall Jesus saying, “I asked for money and you didn’t give it”) but I do get uneasy when I read some of the posts on threads like this, that oh-so-casually assume the worst of people, and justify personal inaction on these assumptions.

 

[blessedtoo]

I would not be so concerned about the booze as much as the overall lesson. Give 'em a fish vs teach 'em to fish. Most of our Federal budget goes to various types of welfare/ Social programs. If someone is in need there are opportunities for them to get what they need. There is no need for them to be begging. Rewarding this activity is not doing them any favors in the long run. This is not because I look down on them but because I see thema s equals with much more potential than they seem to see in themselves.

 

[blessedtoo]

One closing story. Not long ago, my mother recently learned (it took her nearly 3 decades for her to accept the truth) that my homeless brother, who is a constant source of great heartache for her, smokes marijuana habitually. A few weeks ago, he called and asked for a couple of hundred dollars. I tried to talk her out of it but she agreed. I came home the next day and she told me what she had done. She donated the agreed amount of money to the Oregon Food bank, called my brother and told him that he can go the food bank instead. He was not happy.

Outstanding!

 

[blessedtoo]

I’m not trying to single you out to be vicious, but only to drive home my previous point- for a group of people who, I am assuming, would defend the Church against the actions of a few, some people on this thread are sure willing to take **undocumented statistics, vague government reports, and friend-of-a-friend stories as justification **for selecting just who Jesus meant when He spoke of “the least of these”.

Giving money away to everyone who asks for it isn’t the solution, either (I can’t seem to recall Jesus saying, “I asked for money and you didn’t give it”) but I do get uneasy when I read some of the posts on threads like this, that oh-so-casually assume the worst of people, and justify personal inaction on these assumptions.

I had to laugh out loud at the above highlighted statement. So, the universally accepted stats about the majority of homeless who are addicted to substances, the government reports which have been consistent for at least a decade, and all our own personal experiences still falls short of an effective argument? What else would it take?

The crux of the matter, for me, is whether my donation actually helps the person who receives. Am I giving because I think I should and it makes me feel as though I’ve done something righteous? Or do I give because I care about my downtrodden brother actually receiving the help he needs?

In my city, our politicians have provided FREE brand spanking new apartments for the homeless. To merit a FREE apartment, the person must have failed drug and alcohol rehab SEVEN times. At the brand new FREE apartment, they are not required to attend AA meetings. But because they can’t drink IN their apartments, they choose to remain on the streets. Seattle police have to goad and corral them into the apartments. They prefer the street so they can drink and collect money from the folks who think they are doing a good thing by doling out cash.

I’ve lived here for 18 years. In that time, our local politicians have come up with all kinds of ideas for helping the homeless - tent city, banning the sale of high proof beers in the downtown area, shelters on every corner - and still, the homeless population has tripled. A friend recently told me of an encounter where a homeless woman, obviously high, approached him for money. When the friend told her the shelter ONE BLOCK AWAY was serving food all day, she told him she didn’t “feel” like walking that far.

It’s not about judgment. As a recovering addict myself, I understand the irreparable damage that can be done when the world continues to enable your sickness. But we do have to make certain judgments about where our charity goes. Even Christ said

Jesus told her, “First I should feed the children—my own family, the Jews.k] It isn’t right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.”

And yes, He did relent and praise her great faith - but after she showed some willingness to make an effort. So when I give ALL charitable donations to my Parish, which runs one of the largest shelters in the city, I feel I AM helping those who not only need it, but are at least willing to walk a block to receive it.