Glaring Hiatus

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Certainly, we can deduce that within a century of the death of the apostles, single bishops led individual church communities, and these were recognised as the holders of the apostolic teaching. However, their commission underwent a necessary change of structure (though not content), once it became bound through the formulation of the canon. Essentially, what we have is what we have; the faithful handing on of the tradition of the Church from one generation to the next must be factored into any consideration of the apostolic authenticity of the Christian community today. The more extreme Protestant positions are clearly revisionist, arguing that records of authentic Christianity were erased by the Catholic Church. As Christians we assert that God is the author, and therefore, what we have today is a part of His great plan and was implicit (even if not clearly explicit) in the design instituted by Christ Himself.

And that’s all I have to say about that 😛
 
From my understanding of what he was saying vis a vie the papacy… he made the argument that the papacy as it exists today has developed throughout the centuries into its present form. It was an acorn within the ancient church that developed into the modern oak tree. The problem with that, of course, is Rome does not dogmatically assert that it has developed… but essentially said the acorn was already an oak tree right from the get go.

Of course, a cursory reading of church history shows that the acorn was an apple seed and not an oak tree at all…but that’s neither here nor there.
You were definitely correct in your reply (nice quote, btw), but it would be better to make such the topic of its own thread, such as “Can ‘Development of Doctrine’ Apply to the Dogma of the Papacy” Then work that through to a conclusion, and so on. Otherwise, you get partway through several debates and have to deal with new people jumping in with old arguments.

The other point being that the Traditional Catholic forum isnn’t really the place for folks who want to debate-it was good for that thread because they have amazing knowledge of papal and conciliar statements, etc, but debates where both debaters aren’t supporting the Catholic position are frowned on there. Better to have such discussion in the non-Catholic forum or Apologetics. If I’d known you were going to post I’d have mentioned it sooner. Sorry. :o
 
The other point being that the Traditional Catholic forum isnn’t really the place for folks who want to debate-it was good for that thread because they have amazing knowledge of papal and conciliar statements, etc, but debates where both debaters aren’t supporting the Catholic position are frowned on there. Better to have such discussion in the non-Catholic forum or Apologetics. If I’d known you were going to post I’d have mentioned it sooner. Sorry. :o
Ah…well, it’s all your fault then. We’ll probably have to call an infallible church council over the matter 😃
 
Maybe you guys can fill me in. I’m at a loss: if Mary is so crucial to our faith/salvation, why do the Epistles not mention her that way? I mean, we’re not talking about some sort of tertiary doctrine;
I think we are talking about a tertiary doctrine. Looking particularly at Marian devotion in today’s Catholic Church, we honour her because of who Jesus is. If Jesus had not done what He did, Mary would certainly not have entered into the public consciousness. But because of what Mary did, Jesus could do what He did. So the veneration of Mary is supported by Christological doctrine (who Jesus is), and the theology of redemption, justification, sanctification (what He did and why He did it).

Now, coming from the other side, I agree with our Protestant brothers and sisters that our devotion to Jesus must be on an entirely different and higher order. However, as a Catholic, I believe that the highest worship we give to God is to re-present in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, to God the Father, Jesus’s Sacrifice on the Cross, which we do in the Eucharist, which becomes His Body and Blood. But the Eucharist being such a glorious event leaves us quite open to honour Mary without encroaching on the worship of God.

But even the Eucharist is a secondary doctrine, as it is dependent on the Christological doctrines of who Jesus is and what He did on Earth, and why He did it. So, veneration of Mary really is a tertiary doctrine, supported by two layers of doctrine, and hemmed in by two layers of doctrine.
 
Ah…well, it’s all your fault then. We’ll probably have to call an infallible church council over the matter 😃
Well, if it’s infallible, I can’t attend-I know I’m fallible and don’t pretend otherwise.
 
We don’t all know this. Obviously, there are some problems with such an argument, such as the fact that Jesus isn’t a covenant, so Mary wouldn’t be a carrier or “ark” of any covenant.
I don’t think it is appropriate to dismiss an argument as “fanciful interpretation” when the basis for the comparison between Mary and the Ark is as simple as comparing Luke’s writing to the OT. It seems clear to me that Luke was evoking the image of the Ark of the Covenant in describing Mary’s travel to her cousin Elizabeth. Compare Exodus 40:34-35 and Luke 1:35. Also compare 2 Samuel 6:11 to Luke 1:26, 40, 2 Samuel 6:9 to Luke 1:43, and 2 Samuel 6:14-16 to Luke 1:44. It seems clear that it was the author of Luke’s gospel that was making the comparison. It also seemed clear to early christians, like St. Ambrose who detailed several ways in which the Ark of the Covenant prefigured Mary, as early as the 4th century. The OT Ark carried the wrtten Word of God while Mary carried the living Word. Mary is the living Ark of the living Word.

I can understand why non-Catholics would shy away from the typological interpretations of scripture (which were clearly implied by the authors in this instance) because to travel down such a path would give rise to support for all sorts of “Catholic” :eek: concepts. I understand the reticence, believe me. I was there for a while myself. But when it is so clear that even the writers of the NT were looking at the OT typologically, I came to see that it is certainly a legitimate way of pulling meaning from the two texts.
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FantomScholar:
There is no way to test such fanciful interpretations… One cannot feel free to pick and choose what aspects of Mary’s life he wishes to parallel, and which he does not–there are no rules in this kind of interpretation, and it can lead to just about any conclusion.
I do not think so and respectfully disagree. What comparisons can be made are those that are in the text of the NT. Luke’s author is the one who is pointing to the OT passages from Samuel and evoking the Ark’s journey into hill country as he writes of Mary’s passage into the hills to visit Elizabeth. It is Luke’s author who evoke’s David’s dancing before the OT Ark when describing John leaping in his mother’s womb as Mary approaches. It is Luke’s author who evokes David’s declaration when he places the words in Elizabeth’s mouth, “why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me.” (Luke 1:43, cf. 2 Samuel 6:9)
Fantom Scholar:
Other questions could be asked. Since Joseph of Arimathea carried Christ’s body after He had died for the sins of the world (Matthew 27:57-60), does that make Joseph of Arimathea the “Ark of the New Covenant”? Should we assume that Joseph of Arimathea was immaculately conceived? Why should we assume that there even is a New Testament parallel to the Ark of the Covenant?
I don’t know of any passages that drew out the comparison you suggest, as did the author of Luke for Mary, the Mother of God.
Fantom Scholar:
And if we do make that assumption, why is Mary the only candidate for fulfilling this parallel? Wouldn’t somebody like Joseph of Arimathea be an even better candidate, since he was the one who bore Christ’s body after He had just made the sacrifice of the new covenant?
Again, where is the biblical language that links Joseph to the Ark, as does the language and comparison that seems so intentional in Luke’s Gospel discussion of Mary, Elizabeth and John?

Peace,
Robert

FYI - You raised an interesting point about Uzzah. Perhaps St. Joseph - having read and studied the OT like the pious Jewish man we all believe him to be - kept his “hands off” of Mary. Typologically, Mary as the New Ark supports her continuing virginity, and Joseph would be her Uzzah (Joseph the faithful New Uzzah, like Mary and Jesus are faithful New Eve and New Adam) Perhaps this was part of Joseph’s role to play in salvation history.
 
I don’t think it is appropriate to dismiss an argument as “fanciful interpretation” when the basis for the comparison between Mary and the Ark is as simple as comparing Luke’s writing to the OT. It seems clear to me that Luke was evoking the image of the Ark of the Covenant in describing Mary’s travel to her cousin Elizabeth. Compare Exodus 40:34-35 and Luke 1:35. Also compare 2 Samuel 6:11 to Luke 1:26, 40, 2 Samuel 6:9 to Luke 1:43, and 2 Samuel 6:14-16 to Luke 1:44. It seems clear that it was the author of Luke’s gospel that was making the comparison. It also seemed clear to early christians, like St. Ambrose who detailed several ways in which the Ark of the Covenant prefigured Mary, as early as the 4th century. The OT Ark carried the wrtten Word of God while Mary carried the living Word. Mary is the living Ark of the living Word.
I see… So, we are to take statements in the Old Testament about, for example, an action which takes three months (your alluded reference to the ark being in the house of Obed-edom for three months), and should ascribe as a typology of Mary (as you claim Luke is doing)? Where do you draw the line with this form of interpretation?
I can understand why non-Catholics would shy away from the typological interpretations of scripture (which were clearly implied by the authors in this instance) because to travel down such a path would give rise to support for all sorts of “Catholic” :eek: concepts. I understand the reticence, believe me. I was there for a while myself. But when it is so clear that even the writers of the NT were looking at the OT typologically, I came to see that it is certainly a legitimate way of pulling meaning from the two texts.
Believe me, whether it was Mary or Paul or John, I would object to such hazy forms of typology.
I do not think so and respectfully disagree. What comparisons can be made are those that are in the text of the NT. Luke’s author is the one who is pointing to the OT passages from Samuel and evoking the Ark’s journey into hill country as he writes of Mary’s passage into the hills to visit Elizabeth. It is Luke’s author who evoke’s David’s dancing before the OT Ark when describing John leaping in his mother’s womb as Mary approaches. It is Luke’s author who evokes David’s declaration when he places the words in Elizabeth’s mouth, “why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me.” (Luke 1:43, cf. 2 Samuel 6:9)
I don’t know of any passages that drew out the comparison you suggest, as did the author of Luke for Mary, the Mother of God.
Demonstrating precisely why such typological inferences that Scripture doesn’t give us explicitly (such as the typology in Hebrews, where it actually says it’s a type and not an interpreted type) should be rejected out of hand. Especially when it comes to forming dogmas out of them. Of course I don’t believe Joseph was a type of the ark. I am merely showing you that I could do so because typology can be made to fit any readers presuppositions, wants, or desires.
 
Maybe you guys can fill me in. I’m at a loss: if Mary is so crucial to our faith/salvation, why do the Epistles not mention her that way? I mean, we’re not talking about some sort of tertiary doctrine; it seems to me that if she held the sort of crucial co-salvation position that the RC teaches, there’d have been at least*** one*** clear indication of that in the epistles. (Even in the Gospels, when that one woman in the crowd says to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the paps that suckled you!” Jesus retorts with “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and do it.”) The silence is deafening. (If this question has been answered in an earlier thread, please post the link(s) here. Also, please note: I am not asking for the types of pontifications that TriuneUnity has posted recently; I am solely seeking a focused answer to the very simple question I wrote above.) Whatever insights you can give me will be most appreciated.
A somewhat irrelevant question because you are asking why something is not specifically mentioned in the Bible to Catholics who do not believe in Sola Scriptura
 
I see… So, we are to take statements in the Old Testament about, for example, an action which takes three months (your alluded reference to the ark being in the house of Obed-edom for three months), and should ascribe as a typology of Mary (as you claim Luke is doing)? Where do you draw the line with this form of interpretation?
It seems you’re looking too myopically at the text. It’s not just that Mary remained with Elizabeth for three months (just as the Ark remained for three months with Obed-edom) I’m only looking at all of the language in the text that links the incidents with the Ark in 2 Samuel to Mary’s experiences in Luke, Chapter 1. It’s not just the one passage you reference. There are several that tie Luke 1 to 2 Samuel Have you asked yourself why the author is making the connection. It is not just my imagination. Early Church Fathers saw this connection and plumbed it for meaning. Your rejection of this typological analysis seems somewhat prejudicial to me. You are just dismissing it as “hazy” without really addressing what many have seen for hundreds fo years as being implied clearly within the text.
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FantomScholar:
Believe me, whether it was Mary or Paul or John, I would object to such hazy forms of typology.
Again, you are using adjectives that do not seem to fit the specific circumstances. The Gospel of Luke is making a very clear connection between Mary and the Ark - one that has been seen by the Early Fathers of the Church. The connection seems as clear as John’s identification of Jesus Christ as the “Lamb of God” (with all the typological baggage that entails.) By your logic you would reject this type as well, because John did not pause to explain that passover lamb was in fact a “type” of Jesus, or perhaps simply because Christ was not of the genus Ovid. And how much you would miss of what the OT passover tells us of Christ’s redemptive work.

What is fuzzy is your apparent rejection of typology on no other basis except that a typological analogy can be drawn out to an extreme. That’s true of any anlogy. Certainly I would not argue that Mary is made of cedar because she is the New Ark. Nevertheless, the author of Luke’s Gospel - by alluding to 2 Samuel - is telling us there is something to be drawn about who Mary is by comparison to the Ark of the Covenant. Again, I fail to see why your reaction to such an analysis is so hostile.
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FantomScholar:
Demonstrating precisely why such typological inferences that Scripture doesn’t give us explicitly (such as the typology in Hebrews, where it actually says it’s a type and not an interpreted type) should be rejected out of hand. Especially when it comes to forming dogmas out of them.
Dogmas? What dogma are you referring to? The dogma of the New Ark of the Covenant? Sorry, not familiar with that one.
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FantomScholar:
Of course I don’t believe Joseph was a type of the ark. I am merely showing you that I could do so because typology can be made to fit any readers presuppositions, wants, or desires.
You keep missing my point, and I’m not sure at this point if you really want to see it or not. It is clear from the text (even though the author is not stating “the Ark is a type of Mary”) that the author of Luke’s gospel is drawing the comparison between Mary and the OT Ark. One has to be blind not to see the repeated references to 2 Samuel in Luke, 1. Starting from that point, one can compare Mary and the Ark to understand: (1) what the Ark prefigures; and (2) what it is about Mary’s nature that makes her comparable to the Ark of the Covenant. It’s not fanciful or hazy. It’s legitimate study that yields valuable insight.

Peace,
Robert
 
Of course I don’t believe Joseph was a type of the ark. I am merely showing you that I could do so because typology can be made to fit any readers presuppositions, wants, or desires.
Again, we have no Apostolic teaching of the “typology” you’ve proposed.

We do have, however, references to Mary’s being “without stain” from the 2nd century Coptic Church, even predating the term “original sin”.

And perhaps Greek influence on Eastern Church culture *and *the gospel writer have something in common.
 
… There are several that tie Luke 1 to 2 Samuel Have you asked yourself why the author is making the connection. It is not just my imagination. Early Church Fathers saw this connection and plumbed it for meaning…
…The Gospel of Luke is making a very clear connection between Mary and the Ark - one that has been seen by the Early Fathers of the Church.
Please help me out here. Which ECFs are you referring to? Which ECF is the first recorded ECF to make the Mary-Ark connection?
 
Maybe you guys can fill me in. I’m at a loss: if Mary is so crucial to our faith/salvation, why do the Epistles not mention her that way? I mean, we’re not talking about some sort of tertiary doctrine; it seems to me that if she held the sort of crucial co-salvation position that the RC teaches, there’d have been at least*** one*** clear indication of that in the epistles. (Even in the Gospels, when that one woman in the crowd says to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the paps that suckled you!” Jesus retorts with “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and do it.”) The silence is deafening. (If this question has been answered in an earlier thread, please post the link(s) here. Also, please note: I am not asking for the types of pontifications that TriuneUnity has posted recently; I am solely seeking a focused answer to the very simple question I wrote above.) Whatever insights you can give me will be most appreciated.
Revelations Chapter 11
15 10 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet. There were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world now belongs to our Lord and to his Anointed, and he will reign forever and ever.” 16 The twenty-four elders who sat on their thrones before God prostrated themselves and worshiped God 17 and said: “We give thanks to you, Lord God almighty, who are and who were. For you have assumed your great power and have established your reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath has come, and the time for the dead to be judged, and to recompense your servants, the prophets, and the holy ones and those who fear your name, the small and the great alike, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” 19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
Be patient… I’ll now post the follow:
 
Revelations Chapter 12
1 1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. 3 3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, 4 with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. 4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. 5 Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. 6 7 7 Then war broke out in heaven; Michael 8 and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, 8 but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, 9 who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser 10 of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time.” 13 When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, 11 so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year. 15 The serpent, 12 however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current. 16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth. 17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. 13 (18) It took its position 14 on the sand of the sea.
It escapes me how Christians can’t see this more clearly. Mary is quite special.
 
This is just an example of speculating without any evidence. Mary is entrusted to John, not the other way around. As John explains in verse 27, he took care of Mary after Jesus’ death. If either figure is portrayed as being protective in this passage, it’s John, not Mary. Even if that wasn’t the case, why should we assume that John is representative of the Christian church, whereas Mary is just Mary? The Catholic choice to see John as symbolic, while not seeing Mary as symbolic, is arbitrary. It’s unprovable. The most plausible explanation of this passage is the one that John himself gives us in verse 27. To read some spiritual motherhood of Mary into the passage, an interpretation that nobody advocated during the earliest generations of Christianity, is going beyond the evidence.
Okay, one by one: You say “Mary is entrusted to John…” Well, yes, that is true. (I do want to point out that the Beloved Disciple is never named in this Gospel, and many scholars disagree on exactly who wrote it; there is some significance in the generic term of Beloved Disciple). The Beloved Disciple, John, takes care of her. Assuming the Catholic interpretation the Beloved Disciple represents all members of the Church, Mary has certainly been entrusted to the care of the Church in as much as we honor her and protect her memory as Jesus, her Son, would want us to. “…not the other way around.” You forget that Jesus said to Mary, “Woman, behold, your son.” Mary takes the Beloved Disciple as her son as well; naturally this means she will care for him as she would her own natural-born son. (Note the strong language of Christ in these passages. He did not say “Mom, let John take care of you.” Or “John, take care of my mother." He used “Behold, your mother.”)

“As John explains in verse 27, he took care of Mary after Jesus’ death.” Yes, he took care of her, but there’s more than that. If we look at the Greek text “the disciple took her eis ta idia” While most translations, including the NAB that I use, interpret this as “into his home” or, as others, “into his care”, these translations are more specific than the Greek allows for. The Greek word for house is oikon, not used here.

To quote from a Catholic Answers tract:

Eis is a preposition with five general meanings, expressing place, time, measure, relationship, and end, purpose, or goal. (The last two meanings–relationship and end, purpose, or goal–frequently converge in a given sentence.)

Ta idia is the neuter plural substantive use of the adjective idios: “private, one’s own.” John has used the plural, although the singular to idion is often found with no difference of meaning. According to context, the meaning may be “one’s own, my own, your own, his own, her own, our own, their own.”

One’s own what?

Eis in John 19:27 is used to express end, purpose, or goal, a frequent usage in John’s Gospel (1:7, 4:14, 4:36, 6:9, 9:39, 12:7, 13:29, 18:37). In this usage eis translates into English as “for” or “as.” That the disciple took Mary eis ta idia means only that he took her as his own.” catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9210fea2.asp

So, yes, Mary is entrusted to John’s care, but as he takes her “as his own”. There is a sense of belonging.

“Why should we assume that John is representative of the Christian church, whereas Mary is just Mary?” We don’t. Mary is not just Mary is this passage; she is also an archetype of the Church (both she and the Beloved Disciple are). She is the first Christian, a model of faith and charity for the whole Church and her motherhood here symbolizes also the role of the Church as mother of Christians. She is also seen as the New Eve (Eve, the mother of all, disobeyed God; Mary, the mother of all Christians, followed His will, etc.) Christ’s reference to her as “Woman” the two times she is mentioned in John’s Gospel—which is a very usual term for a son to use for his mother—points to this, as it points to Revelation. (This interpretation sheds light on Rev. 12:17)
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812frs.asp

I realize I haven’t explained each of these in detail, but I just want you to know that the Church sees it as having more significance than you allow for.

“an interpretation that nobody advocated during the earliest generations of Christianity”
St. Augustine, On Holy Virginity, paragraph 7, circa 399: “the fruitfulness of Mary in the flesh should be more excellent, that she gave birth to the Head Himself of these members… through this, that in a spiritual manner she is the mother of the members of Christ, of Whom also after a spiritual manner she is the virgin.”

Even if you still say no one specifically labeled her as the Mother of Christians during the earliest generations, you cannot prove that anyone denied it. There are plenty of doctrines that have developed over the years as we came to better understanding, such as the Trinity. In fact, many Protestant doctrines were developed later on that were not advocated during early years (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, etc.)

Not only that, but Catholics are not the only ones who believe in the spiritual motherhood of Mary. Martin Luther, Christmas Day 1523, “I believe that there is no one among us who would not leave his own mother to become a son of Mary. And that you can do, all the more because that has been offered as a choice to you, and it is an even greater joy than if you embraced your mother with real embraces."

The Anglican de Satge agrees, as do the Eastern Orthodox Christians. See catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9210fea2.asp

Well, I probably opened up more cans of worms…
 
Linda Marie, thank you for this, but now I have another question, then: where would an inquirer find a list of all the dogmatic teachings of the church? And do I understand correctly that if it is not dogma, the individual RCer is not bound by it (bec. you did say before, “In being the person, the human being, from whom God took flesh and became Man, Mary Co-operated in a Singular and Unique fashion for all eternity. Even so, this is NOT dogma.”)? It’s all terribly confusing.:confused:
Dogma

History of Dogmatic Theology

The Dogmas of Faith (here’s a list)
Question: Are Catholics bound in conscience to accept all Papal teachings, or just infallible teachings?
Answer: Clearly Catholics have a duty to obey all Church teachings. However, there are varying degrees of obligation according to the different degree of authority that is attached to the teaching, and to how it is presented. You will find these distinctions in any standard textbook of dogmatic theology.
Dogmas defined ex cathedra must be accepted under pain of losing the Faith, in such a way that a person who professes the direct contradictory of an act of the extraordinary Magisterium defining such a dogma, is correctly called a heretic.
Dogmas are frequently taught infallibly by the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. Clearly we owe them the adhesion of our Faith, and a person who would knowingly deny one of these would be a formal heretic. The problem, however, is that of determining what really is a part of the Ordinary Magisterium (i.e. that which has always and everywhere been taught), and consequently that which really is infallible. This is the work of theology, but since human judgements are involved errors can enter in. It is consequently often not possible to call a person who denies such a dogma a formal heretic, until such time as his error has been condemned by an act of the Extraordinary Magisterium. This is what was done at the Council of Trent for the protestant errors, for example concerning justification and the sacraments.<…>
If something has not been defined dogmatically, we are still free to speculate, cogitate, meditate, or even hold a dissenting opinion however, we must always submit to the authority of the Church to settle matters of dispute, believing that the Holy Spirit is always guiding Her in all Truth and will not allow Her to teach error.
 
Again, we have no Apostolic teaching of the “typology” you’ve proposed.

We do have, however, references to Mary’s being “without stain” from the 2nd century Coptic Church, even predating the term “original sin”.

And perhaps Greek influence on Eastern Church culture *and *the gospel writer have something in common.
Yes, we do. However, that doesn’t mean that that particular church father interpreted any typology correct, either.
 
It seems you’re looking too myopically at the text. It’s not just that Mary remained with Elizabeth for three months (just as the Ark remained for three months with Obed-edom) I’m only looking at all of the language in the text that links the incidents with the Ark in 2 Samuel to Mary’s experiences in Luke, Chapter 1. It’s not just the one passage you reference. There are several that tie Luke 1 to 2 Samuel Have you asked yourself why the author is making the connection. It is not just my imagination. Early Church Fathers saw this connection and plumbed it for meaning. Your rejection of this typological analysis seems somewhat prejudicial to me. You are just dismissing it as “hazy” without really addressing what many have seen for hundreds fo years as being implied clearly within the text.
The author is not making the connection. You are interpreting him as making the connection. No other Scripture writer makes the connection. Why should I assume that Luke makes such inferences to the ark moving around Palestine? Where do the inferences stop? How close to the story of the ark must it be in order for it to be a parallel? As stated in my first post, there are no rules for such things. It becomes a wax nose that can be twisted any way the reader so imagines.
Again, you are using adjectives that do not seem to fit the specific circumstances. The Gospel of Luke is making a very clear connection between Mary and the Ark - one that has been seen by the Early Fathers of the Church. The connection seems as clear as John’s identification of Jesus Christ as the “Lamb of God” (with all the typological baggage that entails.) By your logic you would reject this type as well, because John did not pause to explain that passover lamb was in fact a “type” of Jesus, or perhaps simply because Christ was not of the genus Ovid. And how much you would miss of what the OT passover tells us of Christ’s redemptive work.
In such a situation, an explanation of the typology is not needed. The fact of the matter is John says “Behold the Lamb of God.” There is no one who says as Mary passes by “Behold, the Ark of the New Covenant.” As I said in my first post, the only typology we should infer from Scripture is that which Scripture directly infers.
What is fuzzy is your apparent rejection of typology on no other basis except that a typological analogy can be drawn out to an extreme. That’s true of any anlogy. Certainly I would not argue that Mary is made of cedar because she is the New Ark. Nevertheless, the author of Luke’s Gospel - by alluding to 2 Samuel - is telling us there is something to be drawn about who Mary is by comparison to the Ark of the Covenant. Again, I fail to see why your reaction to such an analysis is so hostile.
My reaction isn’t hostile because it’s Mary; but because it’s bad biblical interpretation. It would be just as negative if it were Paul under discussion. The early church fathers were prone to such allegorical fancies. Dispensationalist Protestants make the same mistake when they read Revelation and interpret the locusts as modern day attack helicopters.

If anything, Jesus is the bearer of the New Covenant, not Mary.
Dogmas? What dogma are you referring to? The dogma of the New Ark of the Covenant? Sorry, not familiar with that one.
You know, I am sure, that such typology is used for dogmas such as the Immaculate Conception.
 
We do have, however, references to Mary’s being “without stain” from the 2nd century Coptic Church, even predating the term “original sin”.
Could you please provide the source?
 
Mega-thanx to all who continue to contribute here: all of the discussions/info “funnel” into the “Big Question” I had behind my poorly articulated OP. I still would like to know whether there’s some sort of list of premises or a description of the paradigm that’s used in RC Scripture interpretation, because the RCC seems to read a whole lot more into any given verse than the average Protestant reading would yield.
…Protestant theologian Rudolf Sohm…asserted that the form of the primitive Church was charismatic, in which only the power of persons led by the Spirit prevailed.
That idea would seem to be supported by this:

*When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can ***all ***prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. *(1 Cor. 14:26ff, my emphases)
the Holy Spirit is not bound Himself by the structure of the Church and blows where He will (cf. Jn 3:8).
👍:clapping::amen:

Linda Marie: that list of links is hugely useful, and the quote is also intriguing (now I just need to go look up the 2 types of Magisteria…;)).👍
 
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