Glass chalice - what is the problem?

[Bonnie]

Gold doesn’t rust.

No, but silver tarnishes - that’s probably what was meant. Standard construction for chalices and patins is gold plate over silver. Over time, the gold can pit, and the tarnish becomes noticeable.

 

[malphono]

One parish where I volunteered, we were not allowed to wash the gold chalices. They were dried with a clean purificator (after being purified) and immediately put back into storage until the next Mass.

Maybe they were gold plated?

Whether they were gold, or sterling silver or even base metal plated with gold, that’s a very standard way. Even gold plating doesn’t rust, and is quite easy to clean. (Something that is well plated will, however, last far longer than something that is cheaply done.)

Anyway, gold doesn’t need to be scrubbed. Plating, in particular, doesn’t like to be abraded, but even gold (usually something like 18k or less – true “solid” would be much too soft for the purpose) should not be handled more than necessary lest it acquire a patina or erode. The more it’s handled, the more it will erode. Take, for example, an old gold coin that was actually circulated. It won’t tarnish, per-se, but it will most definitely erode from being handled, and will take on a dark finish.

 

[adrift]

From Redemptionis Sacramentum (emphasis added):

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.[205]The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,[206]so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.[207]

Originally Posted by DrStachys View Post
It isn’t. At least not per the GIRM and RS.

Then I wonder what was meant in Redepmtionis Sacramentum 117?

I was echoing your wonder since I read RS as saying that glass should not be used. If then it is used how is it not an abuse? I wonder if DrStachys had a different view on what abuse means?

 

[malphono]

I was echoing your wonder since I read RS as saying that glass should not be used. If then it is used how is it not an abuse?

Well, it looks like we’re on the same page after all. Sorry, I guess I missed the nuance in your earlier post.

I wonder if DrStachys had a different view on what abuse means?

So it would seem.

 

[DrStachys]

Then I wonder what was meant in Redepmtionis Sacramentum 117?

An actual chalice made from fine crystal is a world away from a cheap wine glass “lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit.” If you want to get technical, depending on how it’s employed, there can be zero risk to shattering a crystal vessel during the celebration of the Mass.

A chalice with a lid? How … innovative.

“Innovative?” Hardly. If anyone actually felt antagonized by the appearance of a lid on the chalice, it could just as easily be left in the sacristy. I think the symbolism of keeping the chalice covered while in storage is a wonderful thing.

I think when one comes right down to it, commercial stemware is far more durable and far less delicate than expensive crystal.

No way. I own a crystal chalice made by Waterford that would survive a drop that would shatter common stemware.

Even worse about common stemware is that it underscores the belief by some that the Precious Blood is merely wine. I really cannot think of a less appropriate vessel to use than one immediately identified as a wine glass.

I wonder how many hours of Catholics’ time have been spend and will be spent worldwide on the matter of “glass chalices.”

 

[jmcrae]

I wonder how many hours of Catholics’ time have been spend and will be spent worldwide on the matter of “glass chalices.”

Rome has specified precious metal, and a lot of time has been wasted with “Did he really say … ?”

If you just go with precious metal, you can’t go wrong, and nobody can criticize you.

 

[malphono]

An actual chalice made from fine crystal is a world away from a cheap wine glass “lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit.” If you want to get technical, depending on how it’s employed, there can be zero risk to shattering a crystal vessel during the celebration of the Mass.

That’s actually quite amusing.

“Innovative?” Hardly. If anyone actually felt antagonized by the appearance of a lid on the chalice, it could just as easily be left in the sacristy. I think the symbolism of keeping the chalice covered while in storage is a wonderful thing.

Glad you think so.

No way. I own a crystal chalice made by Waterford that would survive a drop that would shatter common stemware.

wow.

Even worse about common stemware is that it underscores the belief by some that the Precious Blood is merely wine. I really cannot think of a less appropriate vessel to use than one immediately identified as a wine glass.

And those who can afford luxuries like Waterford crystal etc, use it for the exact same purpose, do they not?

I wonder how many hours of Catholics’ time have been spend and will be spent worldwide on the matter of “glass chalices.”

That has already been very nicely addressed:

Rome has specified precious metal, and a lot of time has been wasted with “Did he really say … ?”

If you just go with precious metal, you can’t go wrong, and nobody can criticize you.

 

[DrStachys]

Rome has specified precious metal, and a lot of time has been wasted with “Did he really say … ?”

If you just go with precious metal, you can’t go wrong, and nobody can criticize you.

“…recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region…”

I do agree – just use precious metal and it short circuits all the wasting of time on this matter.

However let’s say Pope Francis visited Dublin Ireland. If he was presented with a gorgeous Waterford Crystal chalice to celebrate the Mass with, I am sure he would be delighted.

 

[jmcrae]

"…recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region…"

I do agree – just use precious metal and it short circuits all the wasting of time on this matter.

However let’s say Pope Francis visited Dublin Ireland. If he was presented with a gorgeous Waterford Crystal chalice to celebrate the Mass with, I am sure he would be delighted.

I don’t pretend to know what he would think. I know that he would never cause an ugly scene.

I also know that he replaced the non-standard chalices with precious metal chalices in a parish that was using something else, when he went to celebrate Mass there a few weeks ago. He did it in a very dignified and face-saving way, but it was pretty clear that he intends for that parish to use the precious metal chalices that he gave them, rather than what they were using before. That was during the lead-up to World Youth Day in Brazil.

 

[Brendan]

No way. I own a crystal chalice made by Waterford that would survive a drop that would shatter common stemware.:

Hold that Waterford up at the level an EMHC would commonly hold a chalice. Now drop it on a marble floor.

Are you will to risk to claim that it would not shatter.

 

[zab]

I wonder how many hours of Catholics’ time have been spend and will be spent worldwide on the matter of “glass chalices.”

As many hours as you want to continue it . As long as this violation of liturgical instruction continues, there will always be questions about liturgical abuse, and not all of those questions are asked by people who just want to complain. Some want to know if what they heard about liturgical abuse is true and if so what the source is. The Vatican has responded on this and there is no further need of debate on this issue.

 

[andrewstx]

I have seen photos taken in the Royal Treasury in London of chalices with lids. Turn them over and it’s a paten.

Mystery solved. And BTW those chalices were made of gold or silver.

 

[DrStachys]

I have seen photos taken in the Royal Treasury in London of chalices with lids. Turn them over and it’s a paten.

Mystery solved. And BTW those chalices were made of gold or silver.

Thanks. It’s a VERY logical design.

 

[DrStachys]

Hold that Waterford up at the level an EMHC would commonly hold a chalice. Now drop it on a marble floor.

Are you will to risk to claim that it would not shatter.

Difficult to drop it on a marble floor when the altar mensa is in the way…

 

[DrStachys]

As many hours as you want to continue it. As long as this violation of liturgical instruction continues, there will always be questions about liturgical abuse, and not all of those questions are asked by people who just want to complain. Some want to know if what they heard about liturgical abuse is true and if so what the source is. The Vatican has responded on this and there is no further need of debate on this issue.

That’s the saddest part of all – how much time and energy is wasted…

Look at these very forums. The exact same matters/question keep being raised – for years. What a terrible drain on the Church.

I think i’ll ask my pastor to use my Waterford chalice this Sunday. It truly is beautiful.

 

[adrift]

That’s the saddest part of all – how much time and energy is wasted…

Look at these very forums. The exact same matters/question keep being raised – for years. What a terrible drain on the Church.

I think i’ll ask my pastor to use my Waterford chalice this Sunday. It truly is beautiful.

as also other vessels made from glass

It seems that it doesn’t matter if it is beautiful but that the prohibition is on any glass. To ask your pastor to use it would put him in an unkind position of either disobeying or hurting your feelings.

 

[Elizium23]

I think i’ll ask my pastor to use my Waterford chalice this Sunday. It truly is beautiful.

Wow… just, wow. A L&S poster publicly says he is going to suggest that his pastor commit grave liturgical abuse. I have to say, Dr. Stachys, that is a first for me in three and a half years on these forums. I have seen plenty of people inquire about abuses and many grave ones being recounted here but I have never seen someone go out and offer one up to his pastor. I sincerely hope that your pastor sees reason and soundly rejects your ridiculous idea. If not, I sincerely hope that other parishioners rise up and complain to your bishop about your pastor’s disobedience.

That being said, it is highly inadvisable for you to do this. Counseling someone else to commit a grave sin is certainly grave matter in itself. If you succeed in convincing your pastor in this matter, you will not be eligible to receive communion therefrom, and should proceed immediately to confession due to your role as an accomplice in this matter.

 

[Dodge_pursuit]

One parish where I volunteered, we were not allowed to wash the gold chalices. They were dried with a clean purificator (after being purified) and immediately put back into storage until the next Mass.

Maybe they were gold plated?

I’ve noticed the same thing at my parish. I thought, according to the book, that the priest “purifies” the pieces, making sure no sacred elements remain, then the pieces are “washed” carefully with soap and water, as one would a drinking glass. This would be done in the sacrarium, so even the tiniest crumb or drop that mayhave been missed would go into the earth, not a sewer drain.

But in our sacristy, we do just as you describe.

(PS. off-topic- Star Trek fan Janeway? I am.

 

[zab]

I’ve noticed the same thing at my parish. I thought, according to the book, that the priest “purifies” the pieces, making sure no sacred elements remain, then the pieces are “washed” carefully with soap and water, as one would a drinking glass. This would be done in the sacrarium, so even the tiniest crumb or drop that mayhave been missed would go into the earth, not a sewer drain.

But in our sacristy, we do just as you describe.

(PS. off-topic- Star Trek fan Janeway? I am.

When I used to be a sacristan, it became the duty of the weekend scheduled sacristans to wash the sacred vessels (after they had been purified) in soap and water after each Mass. I don’t know what the sacristans did during the week. (But then, we do not have the Precious Blood during week day Masses) Before then, they were washed once a week by the head sacristan at a time that was not necessarily immediately before or after Mass.

 

[Phemie]

In our parish the EMHCs are responsible for washing the vessels in soap and water after each Mass.

The idea that vessels would be reused over and over again without washing just makes me gag. If the gold plating starts to deteriorate, have the chalices re-plated. But if you use soft cloths it should be many years before that has to be done.