Glass chalices?

[sanctus_belle]

At my church, we have one large chalice that looks like it’s made of gold, and then three smaller glass chalices that Father also consecrates. The gold one is used by only the priest and EMHC’s, and then the EMHC’s are given the glass chalices of Precious Blood to distribute. Is this okay since there is a gold chalice, or are the glass ones still prohibited? and if they are, what can/should I do?

 

[THurifer2]

At my church, we have one large chalice that looks like it’s made of gold, and then three smaller glass chalices that Father also consecrates. The gold one is used by only the priest and EMHC’s, and then the EMHC’s are given the glass chalices of Precious Blood to distribute. Is this okay since there is a gold chalice, or are the glass ones still prohibited? and if they are, what can/should I do?

Glass is not to be used. The fact that there is a gold chalice present doesn’t validate using glass ones as well. The only thing you can do is run it past the priest.

 

[scylla]

They should be made of some unbreakable material. Make sure one is clean and test it.

Do this in front of the Priest to make sure it is ok, if he objects then you have proven your point and given him something to consider, if he doesn’t you will find out if it is unbreakable and prove the point anyways.

We should always give the best for God.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Newbie2]

We use all glass chalices…one large one for the priest and smaller ones for the EMHCs to use. At least 2 bishops have had mass at our parish and didn’t have a problem with it.

One or two parishioners had a problem with using glass chalices, but that’s about all.

Personally, I don’t see a “respect” issue with using good crystal; there is some benefit, methinks, for some at least, to see the consecrated wine as the priest elevates the chalice. On the other hand, I see potential difficulties should a chalice be dropped.

Either way, in our parish, the priest and bishop(s) are OK with using glass chalices, and we’re not likely to change.

 

[musicmantg11]

I don’t really see a big problem with using a Glass Chalice instead of a Gold or Silver one. A metal one costs a lot more than a Glass one. And you could be using that money for the poor and sick. But that’s only my opinion. The Catholic Church says otherwise in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

1. Sacred vessels are to be made from precious metal. If they are made from metal that rusts or from a metal less precious than gold, then ordinarily they should be gilded on the inside.

In my parish I belong to, we have a chapel where the priest says daily mass in the rectory. They use a glass Chalice with a glass Paten.

God Bless! +

 

[PhilotheaZ]

From the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, issued by the Vatican in 2004 (emphasis added):

1. Sacred Vessels

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.[205]The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,[206]so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.

Violation of the paragraph above (#117) is considered a grave matter:

1. Grave Matters

[173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

 

[Phemie]

I don’t really see a big problem with using a Glass Chalice instead of a Gold or Silver one. A metal one costs a lot more than a Glass one. And you could be using that money for the poor and sick.

Remember John 12:3-8. The chalice holds the most precious liquid known to man, it should be be worthy of that.

 

[masterjedi747]

From the instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum, issued by the Vatican in 2004 (emphasis added):

1. Sacred Vessels

[117.] Sacred vessels for containing the Body and Blood of the Lord must be made in strict conformity with the norms of tradition and of the liturgical books.[205]The Bishops’ Conferences have the faculty to decide whether it is appropriate, once their decisions have been given the recognitio by the Apostolic See, for sacred vessels to be made of other solid materials as well. It is strictly required, however, that such materials be truly noble in the common estimation within a given region,[206]so that honour will be given to the Lord by their use, and all risk of diminishing the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species in the eyes of the faithful will be avoided. Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.

Now, I am not going to argue in favor of glass chalices (in fact, I find the reasons given for using only precious metals far more compelling anyway)… but I would like to know if there’s a difference that should be made between glass and crystal?

Because the way that paragraph is worded (“mere containers”), it makes me think of a thin/fragile/common wine glass, or something along those lines, and I can DEFINITELY see why that should be avoided. But I’m not exactly sure why people are translating “no materials that break easily” into “only unbreakable materials”… isn’t there a difference? Aren’t there materials like glass that could be used that do not break easily?

So just theoretically speaking, what about a thick/solid, possibly even shatter-proof crystal-based chalice? In other words, can the chalice be primarily transparent, as long as it is not “lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit”? Would lining the inside with gold make it acceptable, or would even that still be seen as problematic?

 

[Red_Meg]

I’ve had the misfortune of proving through first-hand experience that even high-quality, heavy, thick crystal will break into pieces when dropped on a linoleum kitchen floor. Don’t ask me how I know this…

Margaret

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Now, I am not going to argue in favor of glass chalices (in fact, I find the reasons given for using only precious metals far more compelling anyway)… but I would like to know if there’s a difference that should be made between glass and crystal?

Because the way that paragraph is worded (“mere containers”), it makes me think of a thin/fragile/common wine glass, or something along those lines, and I can DEFINITELY see why that should be avoided. But I’m not exactly sure why people are translating “no materials that break easily” into “only unbreakable materials”… isn’t there a difference? Aren’t there materials like glass that could be used that do not break easily?

So just theoretically speaking, what about a thick/solid, possibly even shatter-proof crystal-based chalice? In other words, can the chalice be primarily transparent, as long as it is not “lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit”? Would lining the inside with gold make it acceptable, or would even that still be seen as problematic?

So many parishes find various excuses, “loopholes” to continue doing what they want to do in this regard. I think God would prefer obedience.

 

[Brendan]

I. A metal one costs a lot more than a Glass one. And you could be using that money for the poor and sick. But that’s only my opinion.

Take a look at what materials God commanded to be used in the creation of the Ark of the Covenant. Rare woods covered in gold.

(Exodus 25)

Then take a look a the materials God required to be used to make the tent that covered the Ark. Linen, finely woven goat hair rare woods overlaid with Gold, gold and silver fittings.

(Exodus 26)

The Ark held mere symbols of Christ, the Law, Mana, the bread from Heaven, the preistly rod of Aaron. All symbols what was to come.

In the Eucharist, we have an infinetly more worthy subject, the Promised One Himself.

If all that gold was commanded by God for mere symbols of Christ, even when there were poor among the Jews, how much more so for Christ Himself.

 

[benedictgal]

During a Q and A session, Francis Cardinal Arinze addressed the matter of using glassware:

In the United States, we have adequate income, why would we have to use glass or porcelain for the precious Blood and the Body of our Lord on the altar and not gold?

Oh, for the vessels. Ah! ***Actually, the liturgical laws forbid [this]. ***This is actually for bishops and priests to work out, because you cannot work out all that. But the liturgical laws are laid down about what type of vessel will be allowed at Mass.

Glass is forbidden. Yes, Forbidden. And anything that can break. Not to talk of those using baskets! Terrible things happen in this world!

For those who may not know, Francis Cardinal Arinze is the Prefect for the Congregation on Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. If anyone should know the right answer, it’s the good cardinal.

 

[Praxis]

I saw a gorgeous olive-wood chalice made in Jerusalem with a gold-plated metal cup insert. That chalice would be proper to use but I’m sure it would raise the ire of those that feel they know best…

 

[Newbie2]

I’ve had the misfortune of proving through first-hand experience that even high-quality, heavy, thick crystal will break into pieces when dropped on a linoleum kitchen floor. Don’t ask me how I know this…



Margaret

So many parishes find various excuses, “loopholes” to continue doing what they want to do in this regard. I think God would prefer obedience.

Maybe so…but methinks God wouldn’t have a hissy-fit over what type of chalice is used (not that anyone in this thread IS having one)…remember that the original chalice used for the last supper wasn’t likely gold or crystal…probably wood or ceramic.

Point taken about disregarding liturgical norms, though.

 

[benedictgal]

Maybe so…but methinks God wouldn’t have a hissy-fit over what type of chalice is used (not that anyone in this thread IS having one)…remember that the original chalice used for the last supper wasn’t likely gold or crystal…probably wood or ceramic.

Point taken about disregarding liturgical norms, though.

Actually, the Lord was very, very specific about such things when he dictated to Moses the form, manner and matter by which He would be worshipped. In fact, he was very detailed about how the Ark should look, even right down to the type of wood and overlay that should be used. He also went into specifics about the type and color of vestments for the priests to use and the kinds of vessels (gold) for the sacrifice.

You could say that the account in Exodus (and the repetitive narratives in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) was the first General Instruction on the worship of Yahweh. If memory serves, any deviation from the norms, matter and form establsihed by God was met with a fatal punishment. Aaron’s sons botched the incense and the Lord consumed them. Dathan and company committed a liturgical abuse and the Lord opened up the ground and swallowed the priests, their families and their possessions.

So, I don’t think God takes his worship too lightly. After all, the first and greatest commandment is to love God. Loving God means giving Him the proper worship that is due Him. This includes following the rubrics and norms establsihed by His Church, right down to the sacred vessels.

 

[Newbie2]

Actually, the Lord was very, very specific about such things when he dictated to Moses the form, manner and matter by which He would be worshipped. In fact, he was very detailed about how the Ark should look, even right down to the type of wood and overlay that should be used. He also went into specifics about the type and color of vestments for the priests to use and the kinds of vessels (gold) for the sacrifice.

You could say that the account in Exodus (and the repetitive narratives in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) was the first General Instruction on the worship of Yahweh. If memory serves, any deviation from the norms, matter and form establsihed by God was met with a fatal punishment. Aaron’s sons botched the incense and the Lord consumed them. Dathan and company committed a liturgical abuse and the Lord opened up the ground and swallowed the priests, their families and their possessions.

So, I don’t think God takes his worship too lightly. After all, the first and greatest commandment is to love God. Loving God means giving Him the proper worship that is due Him. This includes following the rubrics and norms establsihed by His Church, right down to the sacred vessels.

True in general, methinks, but all a part of Mosaic law, which we no longer follow.

Actually I prefer gold chalices…but we have glass.

 

[Brendan]

True in general, methinks, but all a part of Mosaic law, which we no longer follow.

Nope, the only part of the Mosaic Law that we do not follow is that which declared something to be liturgically clean or unclean.

All the Moral Law ( which, needless to say, involved the death of the offender) are still followed.

It could not be otherwise, that which is immoral will always be immoral.

 

[Brendan]

Maybe so…but methinks God wouldn’t have a hissy-fit over what type of chalice is used (not that anyone in this thread IS having one)…remember that the original chalice used for the last supper **wasn’t likely gold or crystal…probably wood or ceramic. **
.

Nope, it was most likely a very valuable cup. Remember that Christ held the Last Supper in the Upper Room.

A person with a vacant upper room in Jerusalem ( the archtypical 'high rent city of Judea) was upper middle class at worst.

Not only that, this was the High Feast of Jews, the very best set was brought out, generally a special set kept for that event, in much the same way that many houses have Christmas dishes that they bring out for Christmas dinner.

So, it was the best cup the host could afford and certainly not a common material.

And yes, God would have a ‘hissy fit’ if someone was knowing disobeying the directives issues by his Vicar.

Here is what the Holy Spirit had to say about it in Vatican I ( Pastor Aeternus)

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

So if someone is not giving submission and true obedience to the Church in matters of discipline and government, then yes, the Holy Spirt is irked, because they are not listening to what the Holy Spirt told them to do.

 

[Newbie2]

Nope, it was most likely a very valuable cup. Remember that Christ held the Last Supper in the Upper Room.

A person with a vacant upper room in Jerusalem ( the archtypical 'high rent city of Judea) was upper middle class at worst.

Not only that, this was the High Feast of Jews, the very best set was brought out, generally a special set kept for that event, in much the same way that many houses have Christmas dishes that they bring out for Christmas dinner.

So, it was the best cup the host could afford and certainly not a common material.

And yes, God would have a ‘hissy fit’ if someone was knowing disobeying the directives issues by his Vicar.

Here is what the Holy Spirit had to say about it in Vatican I ( Pastor Aeternus)

So if someone is not giving submission and true obedience to the Church in matters of discipline and government, then yes, the Holy Spirt is irked, because they are not listening to what the Holy Spirt told them to do.

I stand corrected on the original chalice, and I guess the Almighty is miffed at our priest, bishop and parish.

 

[japhy]

Nope, the only part of the Mosaic Law that we do not follow is that which declared something to be liturgically clean or unclean.

Not to mention that the liturgical law of the Mosaic covenant was a shadow of the things to come, and so that which is to come must be even more glorious than that which was only its shadow!