Glass chalices?

[benedictgal]

Newbie, I think that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the law, but, to fulfill it. The rubrics that Yahweh established for his cultic worship were a type of what was to come when Jesus would fulfill the covenant, ratified with His own Body and sealed with His Blood. Remember, that Jesus expressed righteous anger and indignation when He saw what the money changes were doing in the Court of the Gentiles, in His Father’s House.

Incidentally, Francis Cardinal Arinze, the Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments mentioned Old Testament liturgical abuse during a speech he gave some time ago:

1. Holy Scripture Stresses the Observance of Norms

In the Old Testament severe punishment was meted out to those to whom the conduct of worship had been entrusted but who ignored the detailed norms for such worship which God gave the chosen people through Moses. The two sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, offered unlawful fire and were burnt to death in the sanctuary even in their vestments (cf. Lev 10:1-3; Num 3:4). Korah, Dathan and Abiram rebelled against Moses and Aaron and the ground opened and swallowed them and all their families (cf. Num 16:1-35). And Uzzah touched the Ark to adjust it into its proper position and was struck dead on the spot (cf. II Sam 6:6-7).

No doubt, God is more merciful in the New Testament. But we should not for that reason tempt His patience. Saint Paul castigated those who introduced abuses into the dignified celebration of the Eucharist at gatherings of the Christian community, such as factions, drunkenness and unwillingness of the rich to share with the poor (cf. II Cor 11:17-34).

Let us thank and adore the Lord Jesus who gave us the sacrifice and sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. Let us heed the appeal of Pope John Paul II:

I consider it my duty, therefore, to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity.18

Now, the glass cups that your parish is using violate Redemptionis Sacramentum and are a reprobated practice that must stop immediately. There is no indult allowing for glassware to be used, or pottery, for that matter.

. Sacred Vessels
[117.] Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily. This norm is to be applied even as regards metals and other materials that easily rust or deteriorate.207

To disregard liturgical norms is certainly treading on dangerous waters. As Cardinal Arinze notes:

1. Harm Done by Non-Observance of Liturgical Norms

Looking at things from a different perspective, we can appreciate negatively the importance of the observance of liturgical norms if we list some of the damages which can be introduced by ignoring these norms.

Liturgical abuses can confuse the congregation and occasion uncertainty, perplexity, scandal, opposition and factionalism. In more severe cases, they can obscure the Catholic faith and prevent the people from sharing fully in the celebration of the mysteries of Christ. To ignore liturgical norms can also reinforce a false understanding of freedom. In ecumenical efforts it introduces problems and sometimes a wrong presentation of the Catholic faith.17

To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?

To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions.

Newbie, I say this in all charity and concern, what your parish is doing is wrong and is not allowed by the Church.

 

[Newbie2]

Newbie, I think that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the law, but, to fulfill it. The rubrics that Yahweh established for his cultic worship were a type of what was to come when Jesus would fulfill the covenant, ratified with His own Body and sealed with His Blood. Remember, that Jesus expressed righteous anger and indignation when He saw what the money changes were doing in the Court of the Gentiles, in His Father’s House.

Now, the glass cups that your parish is using violate Redemptionis Sacramentum and are a reprobated practice that must stop immediately. There is no indult allowing for glassware to be used, or pottery, for that matter.

Newbie, I say this in all charity and concern, what your parish is doing is wrong and is not allowed by the Church.

I appreciate your concern, but don’t see the parallel between the money changers and using glass chalices. The intent of the money changers was to make a profit for themselves at the expense of the sanctity of the temple. The intent of using glass chalices is for the congregation to see the consecrated wine and thereby enhance the Eucharistic celebration. I understand what you’re trying to say, though.

Like I wrote, personally I prefer the gold and to follow the rubric, but it is what it is. “Must stop immediately”. Sounds good, but not likely to happen if the bishops don’t have a problem with it.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

At my church, we have one large chalice that looks like it’s made of gold, and then three smaller glass chalices that Father also consecrates. The gold one is used by only the priest and EMHC’s, and then the EMHC’s are given the glass chalices of Precious Blood to distribute. Is this okay since there is a gold chalice, or are the glass ones still prohibited? and if they are, what can/should I do?

Here is what the GIRM says:

1. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, sacred vessels may also be made from other solid materials that, according to the common estimation in each region, are precious, for example, ebony or other hard woods, provided that such materials are suited to sacred use and do not easily break or deteriorate. This applies to all vessels which hold the hosts, such as the paten, the ciborium, the pyx, the monstrance, and other things of this kind.
2. As regards chalices and other vessels that are intended to serve as receptacles for the Blood of the Lord, they are to have bowls of nonabsorbent material. The base, on the other hand, may be made of other solid and worthy materials.

Are you sure that it is glass and not crystal?

 

[japhy]

The intent of using glass chalices is for the congregation to see the consecrated wine and thereby enhance the Eucharistic celebration.

Are the patens and ciboria also glass so the people can see the consecrated hosts when they aren’t being held in the priest’s hand?

I’m curious what real enhancement seeing the contents of the chalice provides, honestly.

 

[Newbie2]

Are you sure that it is glass and not crystal?

Ours are crystal, but still quite breakable.

Are the patens and ciboria also glass so the people can see the consecrated hosts when they aren’t being held in the priest’s hand?

I’m curious what real enhancement seeing the contents of the chalice provides, honestly.

The Priest elevates the host for all to see…“this is the lamb of God…” We don’t use patens in our parish either.

I’ve been told that seeing the wine, for some, is visually enhancing…and, I suppose, I see some validity to this.

 

[japhy]

The Priest elevates the host for all to see…“this is the lamb of God…” We don’t use patens in our parish either.

By paten, I meant to include the liturgical vessel holding the bread on the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[lizaanne]

Can someone - anyone - please tell me where they have found anything made of glass or crystal, in the form of a chalice, that when dropped from the hight of an altar onto a marble floor, will not break or chip?

Anyone?

Sorry - I doubt very seriously that any such thing exists.

I think that alone should end this conversation.

~Liza

 

[adrift]

crystal is a form of glass.

4: a clear colorless glass of superior quality; also : objects or ware of such glass

Redemptionis Sacramentum

Reprobated, therefore, is any practice of using for the celebration of Mass common vessels, or others lacking in quality, or devoid of all artistic merit or which are mere containers, as also other vessels made from glass, earthenware, clay, or other materials that break easily.

 

[Newbie2]

By paten, I meant to include the liturgical vessel holding the bread on the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer.

Did you mean Ciborium? I though the Paten was the “crumb catcher”.

Can someone - anyone - please tell me where they have found anything made of glass or crystal, in the form of a chalice, that when dropped from the hight of an altar onto a marble floor, will not break or chip?

Anyone?

Sorry - I doubt very seriously that any such thing exists.

I think that alone should end this conversation.

~Liza

Nobody is contesting that glass or crystal is breakable and not acceptable, are they?

Not to mention that despite the rubrics, they’re being used, like in my parish. What’s one to do?

 

[benedictgal]

Nobody is contesting that glass or crystal is breakable and not acceptable, are they?

Not to mention that despite the rubrics, they’re being used, like in my parish. What’s one to do?

As I indicated in my previous post, the best thing to do is write a letter to your pastor and cite the appropriate section from Redemptionis Sacramentum that indicates that using glassware is a reprobated practice. There is no indult allowing the usage of such material. This is an abuse that needs to be corrected as soon as possible. Redemptionis Sacramentum is not an optional document; it is mandatory and must be universally observed.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Personally, I don’t see a “respect” issue with using good crystal; there is some benefit, methinks, for some at least, to see the consecrated wine as the priest elevates the chalice. On the other hand, I see potential difficulties should a chalice be dropped.

A chalice carved out of a large diamond would be stronger and would allow the Precious Blood to be seen and would also give the respect of a precious material. Something to consider…

 

[benedictgal]

Here is what the GIRM says:

1. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, sacred vessels may also be made from other solid materials that, according to the common estimation in each region, are precious, for example, ebony or other hard woods, provided that such materials are suited to sacred use and do not easily break or deteriorate. This applies to all vessels which hold the hosts, such as the paten, the ciborium, the pyx, the monstrance, and other things of this kind.
2. As regards chalices and other vessels that are intended to serve as receptacles for the Blood of the Lord, they are to have bowls of nonabsorbent material. The base, on the other hand, may be made of other solid and worthy materials.

Are you sure that it is glass and not crystal?

Redemptionis Sacramentum makes it crystal clear that glassware is probhited. Because there were many abuses, the Holy See sought fit to have the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, in collaboration with the Congretation for the Doctrine of the Faith (under the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) publish this document.

 

[lizaanne]

A chalice carved out of a large diamond would be stronger and would allow the Precious Blood to be seen and would also give the respect of a precious material. Something to consider…

~Liza

 

[japhy]

Did you mean Ciborium? I though the Paten was the “crumb catcher”.

My post mentioned both ciboria and patens. A ciborium is traditionally chalice-shaped; patens can be either quite flat or somewhat bowl-shaped.

 

[Larowyn]

I didn’t think anything of it until I saw this thread, but several years ago I went to a Catholic church in Virginia that made use of glass chalices. They also had the tabernacle in another room, a large walk-in baptismal font, the altar in the center of the church with the seats oriented in a circle all around it (like stadium seats), and the host was a thick piece of unleavened bread that was broken and given to each person by the priest.

 

[lizaanne]

I didn’t think anything of it until I saw this thread, but several years ago I went to a Catholic church in Virginia that made use of glass chalices. They also had the tabernacle in another room, a large walk-in baptismal font, the altar in the center of the church with the seats oriented in a circle all around it (like stadium seats), and the host was a thick piece of unleavened bread that was broken and given to each person by the priest.

Hardly sounds like they even LIKE being Catholic for as much as they have Protestantized themselves! How very sad.

~Liza

 

[Newbie2]

As I indicated in my previous post, the best thing to do is write a letter to your pastor and cite the appropriate section from Redemptionis Sacramentum that indicates that using glassware is a reprobated practice. There is no indult allowing the usage of such material. This is an abuse that needs to be corrected as soon as possible. Redemptionis Sacramentum is not an optional document; it is mandatory and must be universally observed.

I’ve spoken with him about this on more than one occasion…and like I wrote, the bishops don’t seem to mind.

My post mentioned both ciboria and patens. A ciborium is traditionally chalice-shaped; patens can be either quite flat or somewhat bowl-shaped.

My bad.

 

[benedictgal]

I’ve spoken with him about this on more than one occasion…and like I wrote, the bishops don’t seem to mind.

My bad.

Have you written a letter to the bishop, referencing Redemptionis Sacramentum? All bishops and priests are bound, by obedience, to follow this document. If your bishop has not responded, then, the next step is to write to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

 

[NetNuncio]

I don’t really see a big problem with using a Glass Chalice instead of a Gold or Silver one. A metal one costs a lot more than a Glass one. And you could be using that money for the poor and sick

I believe Judas said the same thing about the oils Mary used to anoint the Lord.

And heck, if that’s our concern, why not paper cups?

 

[benedictgal]

I believe Judas said the same thing about the oils Mary used to anoint the Lord.

And heck, if that’s our concern, why not paper cups?

That’s very true. Jesus told Judas, “The poor you will have with you always, not me.” Furthermore, the first and foremost commandment is to love God, as Jesus indicated in today’s Gospel. Loving God means offering him the finest that we have. This includes our worship. Under this umbrella, you will find the need to use the finest vestments, music, and yes, vessels. After all, Ancient Israel used vessels made of gold for its cultic worship of Yahweh.