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TPJCatholic
Guest
PhilVaz,
Do you have faith? Just curious, not insulting in any way.
Do you have faith? Just curious, not insulting in any way.
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PhilVaz
Guest
TPJ << Do you have faith? Just curious, not insulting in any way. >>
Well not this much faith:
One Billion Species on the Ark (talking young earthers here, old earthers and local flood believers weāll shave off a few hundred million species)
An Ark 500 Miles Long, 200 Miles Wide at least to accomodate that many animals
That Noah was not a Bird, not a Plane, but Superman, Able to Leap Tall Dinosaurs in a Single Bound.
No, I donāt have that much faith since Genesis 6-9 should not be interpreted that literally. Such miracles are not hinted at in the text.
A little quote from evangelical biologist Darrel Falk that I like:
āThe fact is that Christianity has core beliefs that are not accessible to the scientific methodā¦The resurrection, existence of the Holy Spirit and immortality are all beyond the realm of scientific testability. Even testing the power of prayer will probably not bring scientists to their knees. The history of life on earth, however, is in a much different category. It has been possible to explore this using scientific methodsā¦For the past century and a half, thousands of scientists from disciplines as diverse as physics, geology, astronomy and biology have amassed a tremendous mass of data, and the answer is absolutely clear and equally certain. The earth is not young, and the life forms did not appear in six twenty-four-hour days. God created graduallyā¦We now know more about the nature of divine action. We now know a little about how God created life, and any time we understand something new about the activity of God, it brings us one step closer to God.ā (Falk, Coming to Peace with Science: Bridging the Worlds Between Faith and Biology, page 213, 214)
Also the evangelical geologist Davis Young gives us a long and detailed history of what happened when honest Christian geologists examined the flood story in light of science.
Rich Deemās article on a local flood
I donāt go along with everything there, but Falk, Young, and Deem make a lot more sense to me.
My somewhat incomplete, somewhat rambling
theological and Catholic understanding of the Church is explained here. I donāt go into the flood story, maybe another article on that later.
Phil P
Well not this much faith:
One Billion Species on the Ark (talking young earthers here, old earthers and local flood believers weāll shave off a few hundred million species)
An Ark 500 Miles Long, 200 Miles Wide at least to accomodate that many animals
That Noah was not a Bird, not a Plane, but Superman, Able to Leap Tall Dinosaurs in a Single Bound.
No, I donāt have that much faith since Genesis 6-9 should not be interpreted that literally. Such miracles are not hinted at in the text.
A little quote from evangelical biologist Darrel Falk that I like:
āThe fact is that Christianity has core beliefs that are not accessible to the scientific methodā¦The resurrection, existence of the Holy Spirit and immortality are all beyond the realm of scientific testability. Even testing the power of prayer will probably not bring scientists to their knees. The history of life on earth, however, is in a much different category. It has been possible to explore this using scientific methodsā¦For the past century and a half, thousands of scientists from disciplines as diverse as physics, geology, astronomy and biology have amassed a tremendous mass of data, and the answer is absolutely clear and equally certain. The earth is not young, and the life forms did not appear in six twenty-four-hour days. God created graduallyā¦We now know more about the nature of divine action. We now know a little about how God created life, and any time we understand something new about the activity of God, it brings us one step closer to God.ā (Falk, Coming to Peace with Science: Bridging the Worlds Between Faith and Biology, page 213, 214)
Also the evangelical geologist Davis Young gives us a long and detailed history of what happened when honest Christian geologists examined the flood story in light of science.
Rich Deemās article on a local flood
I donāt go along with everything there, but Falk, Young, and Deem make a lot more sense to me.
My somewhat incomplete, somewhat rambling
theological and Catholic understanding of the Church is explained here. I donāt go into the flood story, maybe another article on that later.Phil P
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TPJCatholic
Guest
PhilVaz,
Thank you for the detailed response. So, is it correct for me to assume that you do not believe that God created the world, the universe and all life?
Thank you for the detailed response. So, is it correct for me to assume that you do not believe that God created the world, the universe and all life?
Z
zian
Guest
Well, Iāve reread this whole thread, and boy am I pooped!
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David_Zampino
Guest
Iām sorry . . . I cannot see how this question CANNOT be insulting!PhilVaz,
Do you have faith? Just curious, not insulting in any way.
Believe me, I know Phil ā way back to the FidoNet days when I was posting under a false name, and had not yet converted.
In my opinion, you go too far here . . .
Blessings,
P
PhilVaz
Guest
TPJ << So, is it correct for me to assume that you do not believe that God created the world, the universe and all life? >>
God created the world and all life through evolution, and every last bit of scientific evidence points that direction, which evidence the Catholic Church accepts, despite what the Discovery Institute will tell you.
Now about those 200-TON DINOSAURS on Noahās Ark, and ONE BILLION species on the Ark? Do you really believe that, or do you have an AnswersInGenesis or TrueOrigin or KolbeCenter spin to put on what we know today about species and the history of life?
Phil P
God created the world and all life through evolution, and every last bit of scientific evidence points that direction, which evidence the Catholic Church accepts, despite what the Discovery Institute will tell you.
Now about those 200-TON DINOSAURS on Noahās Ark, and ONE BILLION species on the Ark? Do you really believe that, or do you have an AnswersInGenesis or TrueOrigin or KolbeCenter spin to put on what we know today about species and the history of life?
Phil P
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David_Zampino
Guest
The Church demands that at the end of the day we believe in creation āex nilihoā ā that is, out of nothing. It says nothing at all about the hows and the whens and the wherefores.PhilVaz,
Thank you for the detailed response. So, is it correct for me to assume that you do not believe that God created the world, the universe and all life?
My friend, you go too far.
Blessings,
P
PhilVaz
Guest
David Z << Believe me, I know Phil ā way back to the FidoNet days when I was posting under a false name, and had not yet converted. >>
Are you kidding? You remember me way back? Who are you? Donāt tell me this is āDavid Goforthā as that would be a miracle much bigger than any worldwide flood!
BTW, you can download my entire FidoNet collection unedited here (see near bottom of page, 1994-1998)
Phil P
Are you kidding? You remember me way back? Who are you? Donāt tell me this is āDavid Goforthā as that would be a miracle much bigger than any worldwide flood!
BTW, you can download my entire FidoNet collection unedited here (see near bottom of page, 1994-1998)
Phil P
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TPJCatholic
Guest
David,
When I do not know a person, I sometimes will ask questions to get a better feel for who they are. In no way was I insulting Phil, I truly wanted to know if he had faith. Many people do not have faith, it was a means for me to get a reading on who he is. Nothing more. Please do not read things into my words that are not there.
When I do not know a person, I sometimes will ask questions to get a better feel for who they are. In no way was I insulting Phil, I truly wanted to know if he had faith. Many people do not have faith, it was a means for me to get a reading on who he is. Nothing more. Please do not read things into my words that are not there.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Phil,
Thank you again for your response, and again I mean no insult. It is good of you to not take insult at my replies, I greatly appreciate it.
What are āAnswersInGenesis, TrueOrigin and KolbeCenter?ā
Do I think the dinosaurs were on the Ark? Good question, thank you. No, I do not.
Thank you again for your response, and again I mean no insult. It is good of you to not take insult at my replies, I greatly appreciate it.
What are āAnswersInGenesis, TrueOrigin and KolbeCenter?ā
Do I think the dinosaurs were on the Ark? Good question, thank you. No, I do not.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
David,
I am having a friendly and mature chat with Phil. Thanks for your concern.
I am having a friendly and mature chat with Phil. Thanks for your concern.
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PhilVaz
Guest
TPJ << Do I think the dinosaurs were on the Ark? Good question, thank you. No, I do not. >>
Ah ha, then you are closer to my position on the flood story already. And Iām not quite sure what my position is yet.
But from your earlier post: āā¦and Godās Word said the flood covered the entire world. We can try to be coy and ask questions about what the āentire worldā means, yet Godās Holy Word tells us that the flood wiped out every living creature on earthā¦it does not say some, or part, or only those in the areaā¦it says every living creatureā¦ā
All right, the dinosaurs were not on the Ark. We got that settled. I guess they were killed by the Flood, or went extinct long before the Flood, right?
Harder question: what about the Kangaroos of Australia, the Pandas of China, the Polar Bears, and Penguins, and the Sloths? Were those on the Ark? If so, how did they get there, and how did they get back ?
You say everything was destroyed since you take the Bible literally there. The Bible literally and explicitly says āevery kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept aliveā (Genesis 6:21). Are you really going to go with that? Weāre back to the problem of over a million (conservatively) existing species on the Arkā¦and how big was that boat again?
Phil P
Ah ha, then you are closer to my position on the flood story already. And Iām not quite sure what my position is yet.
But from your earlier post: āā¦and Godās Word said the flood covered the entire world. We can try to be coy and ask questions about what the āentire worldā means, yet Godās Holy Word tells us that the flood wiped out every living creature on earthā¦it does not say some, or part, or only those in the areaā¦it says every living creatureā¦ā
All right, the dinosaurs were not on the Ark. We got that settled. I guess they were killed by the Flood, or went extinct long before the Flood, right?
Harder question: what about the Kangaroos of Australia, the Pandas of China, the Polar Bears, and Penguins, and the Sloths? Were those on the Ark? If so, how did they get there, and how did they get back ?
You say everything was destroyed since you take the Bible literally there. The Bible literally and explicitly says āevery kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept aliveā (Genesis 6:21). Are you really going to go with that? Weāre back to the problem of over a million (conservatively) existing species on the Arkā¦and how big was that boat again?
Phil P
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Phil,
If I looked this matter from the lense of our current world, then I would feel as you do. Millions, perhaps billions of different species would have to be on that Arkā¦no doubt there if we look at it from the perspective of what we THINK we know today.
Alas, I do not look at the matter as you doā¦at least I do not think I do.
If I looked this matter from the lense of our current world, then I would feel as you do. Millions, perhaps billions of different species would have to be on that Arkā¦no doubt there if we look at it from the perspective of what we THINK we know today.
Alas, I do not look at the matter as you doā¦at least I do not think I do.
P
PhilVaz
Guest
TPJ << Millions, perhaps billions of different species would have to be on that Arkā¦no doubt there if we look at it from the perspective of what we THINK we know today. >>
OK, my case for a local flood:
(1) There are indeed 1.5 to 2 million currently known species today, another 10 million or more estimated that havenāt been discovered yet.
(2) Millions of species of animals cannot fit on an Ark with the dimensions mentioned in Genesis chapter 6 (450 feet long, 75 feet wide, 45 feet high).
(3) Millions of species of animals could not possibly walk to Noah and back (there is no hint of āmiraculous animalsā in the biblical text).
And (4) Iāve tossed in the idea that a local flood is exegetically tenable. Thatās my case so far, with a little help from Rich Deem. How do you like it?
Now what is your case for a worldwide flood besides ignoring the scientific objections and positing miracle after miracle not mentioned in the biblical text?
Phil P
OK, my case for a local flood:
(1) There are indeed 1.5 to 2 million currently known species today, another 10 million or more estimated that havenāt been discovered yet.
(2) Millions of species of animals cannot fit on an Ark with the dimensions mentioned in Genesis chapter 6 (450 feet long, 75 feet wide, 45 feet high).
(3) Millions of species of animals could not possibly walk to Noah and back (there is no hint of āmiraculous animalsā in the biblical text).
And (4) Iāve tossed in the idea that a local flood is exegetically tenable. Thatās my case so far, with a little help from Rich Deem. How do you like it?
Now what is your case for a worldwide flood besides ignoring the scientific objections and positing miracle after miracle not mentioned in the biblical text?
Phil P
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coyote
Guest
A person need only watch a little PBS or Discovery Channel to realize that water water everywhere is not, in itself, adequate means to actually eradicate āevery living thingā in the whole world.
There are multitudes of living things that would not only survive nicely under such conditions, but certain ones would even thrive. So, even if one entertains that the global flood is true, how does one then reconcile this fact?
Also, āevery living thingā would include ticks, lice, tapeworms, ricketsias, hookworms, Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium tetani, hydadids, E. coli, bot flys, mosquitoes, warble flys, ringworm etc. Since these organisms exist today (and this is a very tiny list) it follows that āevery living creatureā on the boat was infested with numerous parasites and disease organisms. Must have been a fun trip.
There are multitudes of living things that would not only survive nicely under such conditions, but certain ones would even thrive. So, even if one entertains that the global flood is true, how does one then reconcile this fact?
Also, āevery living thingā would include ticks, lice, tapeworms, ricketsias, hookworms, Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium tetani, hydadids, E. coli, bot flys, mosquitoes, warble flys, ringworm etc. Since these organisms exist today (and this is a very tiny list) it follows that āevery living creatureā on the boat was infested with numerous parasites and disease organisms. Must have been a fun trip.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Phil,
Your case makes sense from our current world perspective. However, God said He covered the entire face of the earthā¦that is essence of my case. Yeah, I know, not very scientifically sound.
I do not think there were millions of species going onto the Ark. I do not think the animals had to travel from large distances and I do not think the world was configured the same way then, as it is now. I think the world we live in today looks as it does because of what God did during the flood and I think that the vast majority of species in the world came after the flood, through Godās providential actions.
Your case makes sense from our current world perspective. However, God said He covered the entire face of the earthā¦that is essence of my case. Yeah, I know, not very scientifically sound.
I do not think there were millions of species going onto the Ark. I do not think the animals had to travel from large distances and I do not think the world was configured the same way then, as it is now. I think the world we live in today looks as it does because of what God did during the flood and I think that the vast majority of species in the world came after the flood, through Godās providential actions.
I
I_Leatherman
Guest
I Leatherman:
The flood water which could cover a whole land still had to come from somewhereā¦and go somewhere. And, it would need to be a significant amount of water.
10,000 - 12,000 yrs ago is about right for the end of the ice-age.
Now, gently melting icefields donāt cause global or even local panic, (unless you work for greenpeace), or boat building on a vast scale.
The ice age, I think, was not limited just to the poles, but also formed miniture polar-like icecaps, icefields, and glaciers in high mountain ranges. For example , the mountains surrounding lakes Victoria and Albert could have been high enough for those conditions and would also have an added attribute, very large basins.
Which could collect and store enormous amounts of melt-water, over and above the existing lake water level.
If the melt water caused these lakes to overflow erosion of the breech could quickly allow a Flood sized quantity of water to flow north across the land.
Plus, since it was a new river-source which breeched, the flood water would be maintained persistently high for a long period [as in the flood account] until the water could find a route to drain into the sea, and afterwards cut channels and allow the land to dry.
Yes?
Iāll add a bit more now.
The flood water which could cover a whole land still had to come from somewhereā¦and go somewhere. And, it would need to be a significant amount of water.
10,000 - 12,000 yrs ago is about right for the end of the ice-age.
Now, gently melting icefields donāt cause global or even local panic, (unless you work for greenpeace), or boat building on a vast scale.
The ice age, I think, was not limited just to the poles, but also formed miniture polar-like icecaps, icefields, and glaciers in high mountain ranges. For example , the mountains surrounding lakes Victoria and Albert could have been high enough for those conditions and would also have an added attribute, very large basins.
Which could collect and store enormous amounts of melt-water, over and above the existing lake water level.
If the melt water caused these lakes to overflow erosion of the breech could quickly allow a Flood sized quantity of water to flow north across the land.
Plus, since it was a new river-source which breeched, the flood water would be maintained persistently high for a long period [as in the flood account] until the water could find a route to drain into the sea, and afterwards cut channels and allow the land to dry.
Yes?
I
I_Leatherman
Guest
Ohh and moreā¦
Maybe all these glaciers and ice-caps weighed down the mountains a little, (or at least slowed or stopped a very gradual natural mountain uplift), as they melted they filled the lake basins to the brim. The mountains, relieved of their weight of ice rebounded, slightly, up - tilting the lake basin to overflowing, eroding a channel from the lake ā¦and ā¦andā¦violaā¦
The Flood !
Maybe all these glaciers and ice-caps weighed down the mountains a little, (or at least slowed or stopped a very gradual natural mountain uplift), as they melted they filled the lake basins to the brim. The mountains, relieved of their weight of ice rebounded, slightly, up - tilting the lake basin to overflowing, eroding a channel from the lake ā¦and ā¦andā¦violaā¦
The Flood !
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David_Zampino
Guest
Not my intent. Sorry.David,
When I do not know a person, I sometimes will ask questions to get a better feel for who they are. In no way was I insulting Phil, I truly wanted to know if he had faith. Many people do not have faith, it was a means for me to get a reading on who he is. Nothing more. Please do not read things into my words that are not there.
D
David_Zampino
Guest
Hey, Phil,David Z << Believe me, I know Phil ā way back to the FidoNet days when I was posting under a false name, and had not yet converted. >>
Are you kidding? You remember me way back? Who are you? Donāt tell me this is āDavid Goforthā as that would be a miracle much bigger than any worldwide flood!
BTW, you can download my entire FidoNet collection unedited here (see near bottom of page, 1994-1998)
Phil P
No, Iām not David Goforth ā though I vaguely remember him . . . I posted way back then as āAbelardā. Became a Catholic a little over a year ago.
Blessings,
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