Global Warming

[Valke2]

Tree mortality rates have doubled in old-growth forests across the Sierra Nevada and western United States because of rising temperatures associated with climate change, a new study has found.

sacbee.com/288/story/1567101.html?mi_rss=Bee%20State%20News

 

[Ender]

So you donlt think Polar Bears could possibly be affected by their climate changing? And what about this sea level rising 20 ft?

I think what I said was that polar bears haven’t been affected by the warming we have experienced, not that one couldn’t speculate on possible future harm.

Oh here is a good article on polar bears I found that I thought was relevant to this polar bear discussion. arctic.noaa.gov/essay_schliebe.html

I read the article and here is (what I think is) the significant comment:

*we do recognize that even minor climate changes **could **likely have a profound effect on polar bears. *

There was no claim in the article that the bears have been negatively affected in any way. Given that their overall numbers have been increasing it would be quite a stretch to make such a claim.

mouse_has_faith:

Not only does your link lead to some nameless guy’s blog, who is obviously heavily biased (“enough with the polar bears!” hardly sets itself up for presenting both sides fairly

I wasn’t quoting the person who wrote the blog, I referenced his citations which included quotes from a 2002 U.S. Geological Survey and a manager of wildlife resources in Canada. I neither know nor care who wrote the blog.

Ender

 

[ChristIsLord]

what if everyone in the world took their ice trays and emptied them in the oceans all at once? could this effectively end global warming? what if we built an enormous ice maker the size of rhode island and built new polar ice caps? what if we taught the polar bears how to live in deserts and relocated them all to saudi arabia?

 

[Calliso]

Polar bears float, right? They can swim, too.

Did you know that sea levels during the Cretaceous were about 500 feet higher than they are today? Was that caused by human-induced Global Warmin’ ™?

LOL about polar bears swimming. Yes they can…but they can;t really swim and hunt at the same time or breed or anything else. They aren;t sea mammals… like a whale or dolphin. And no I am sure that the sea level being 500 ft higher in the Cretaceous was not due to human activity. What does that have to do with climate change now? No one legimate is claiming that humans are all that have ever effected the climate. And that we are the only ones right now having any effect.

 

[Calliso]

what if everyone in the world took their ice trays and emptied them in the oceans all at once? could this effectively end global warming? what if we built an enormous ice maker the size of rhode island and built new polar ice caps? what if we taught the polar bears how to live in deserts and relocated them all to saudi arabia?

I sure hope this isn;t serious…

 

[vz71]

No one legimate is claiming that humans are all that have ever effected the climate. And that we are the only ones right now having any effect.

No but somehow this particular change is different…

The climate of the earth changes from hot to cold and back to hot throughout history, yet somehow man is responsible this time around.

 

[Calliso]

No but somehow this particular change is different…

The climate of the earth changes from hot to cold and back to hot throughout history, yet somehow man is responsible this time around.

Yes no one is denying it has changed before. But climate changes for a reason. It just doesn;t go hey now I am going to be a hot climate or I want to be a dry climate or whatever. I guess I donlt get how it is so hard for people to get that man could have an affect on the climate. And no one is saying that natural forces aren;t playing a part they are. But just because climate changed in the past doesn;t mean we should just go oh well obviously the same things must be happening now and I am sure man is having no effect.

 

[Arclight]

Yes no one is denying it has changed before. But climate changes for a reason. It just doesn;t go hey now I am going to be a hot climate or I want to be a dry climate or whatever. I guess I donlt get how it is so hard for people to get that man could have an affect on the climate. And no one is saying that natural forces aren;t playing a part they are. But just because climate changed in the past doesn;t mean we should just go oh well obviously the same things must be happening now and I am sure man is having no effect.

So you tell me. What year was the “perfect” year for global temperatures? The year you want to roll back the clock to.

 

[Calliso]

New evidence on Antarctic warming

BBC World News

The continent of Antarctica is warming up in step with the rest of the world, according to a new analysis.

Scientists say data from satellites and weather stations indicate a warming of about 0.6C over the last 50 years.

Writing in the journal Nature, they say the trend is “difficult to explain” without the effect of rising greenhouse gas levels in the atmosphere.

Meanwhile, scientists in Antarctica say a major ice shelf is about to break away from the continent.

The Wilkins Ice Shelf is said to be “hanging by a thread” from the Antarctic Peninsula, the strip of land pointing from the white continent towards the southern tip of South America.

And more on Antartica warming…realclimate.org/ first story.

 

[Arclight]

LOL about polar bears swimming. Yes they can…but they can;t really swim and hunt at the same time or breed or anything else. They aren;t sea mammals… like a whale or dolphin. And no I am sure that the sea level being 500 ft higher in the Cretaceous was not due to human activity. What does that have to do with climate change now? No one legimate is claiming that humans are all that have ever effected the climate. And that we are the only ones right now having any effect.

Near where I live is a playa … a dry lake bed. Within the last 10,000 years, that playa has been a lake, a marsh, a playa, a lake, a marsh, a playa … this cycle repeats as the weather warms and cools, with more or less rain falling. To oscillate between a lake and a desert takes sustained climate swings far, far, far in excess of what we’re seeing now. Even historically, climate has been much different than now. During the Middle Ages they were growing wine grapes in England, that ended around the end of the 13th century as the climate cooled again.

Put this in perspective. Come to terms with the concept of deep time.

 

[Valke2]

Near where I live is a playa … a dry lake bed. Within the last 10,000 years, that playa has been a lake, a marsh, a playa, a lake, a marsh, a playa … this cycle repeats as the weather warms and cools, with more or less rain falling. To oscillate between a lake and a desert takes sustained climate swings far, far, far in excess of what we’re seeing now. Even historically, climate has been much different than now. During the Middle Ages they were growing wine grapes in England, that ended around the end of the 13th century as the climate cooled again.

Put this in perspective. Come to terms with the concept of deep time.

Again with the grapes in England. In this corner we have the great majoritiy of climatologists and the majority of world opinion. In the other corner we have grapes in England (maybe). That England was able grow wine 800 years ago doesn’t tell us much about whether we are today having an impact on climate change.

 

[Valke2]

Report: Global warming could devastate U.S. wineries
usatoday.com/weather/climate/2006-07-10-global-warming-wine_x.htm

 

[Calliso]

So you tell me. What year was the “perfect” year for global temperatures? The year you want to roll back the clock to.

I am not sure if such a thing exists. I donlt think I have ever heard any legimate climate scientist claim that there is a perfect temperature we should aim for.

As for why we should be worried about the average global temperature rising. Here is some links that deal with that. though in some ways in directly

realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/#more-414 This talks a little bit about that swindled movie people have been talking about. And another link related to that though this from a guy that was apparently misrepresented in that movie… realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled-carl-wunsch-responds/

realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/10/convenient-untruths/ *and yes it does seem the 20ft sea level rise is a legimate scientific opinion just have to be cautious because stuff gets thrown out there in debates like this all the time…and it can be hard to tell sometimes what is true what is exaggerated and what is down right misrepresented.

scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/02/whats-wrong-with-warm-weather.php *this guy has a decent faq section too. scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php But I usually use other sources as this guy is a layman even thoguh he does get his info from scientific sources. That and sometimes I find his rebuttals maybe a bit too simplified. Otherwise it is pretty good.

realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/11/six-degrees/

earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/global_warming_update6.php

Ok I think that is enough for now.

 

[Calliso]

Again with the grapes in England. In this corner we have the great majoritiy of climatologists and the majority of world opinion. In the other corner we have grapes in England (maybe). That England was able grow wine 800 years ago doesn’t tell us much about whether we are today having an impact on climate change.

And a couple links on that…realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/07/medieval-warmth-and-english-wine/
realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/11/english-vineyards-again/

But yeah I agree with what you said. I donlt really get that argument either.

 

[Arclight]

I am not sure if such a thing exists. I donlt think I have ever heard any legimate climate scientist claim that there is a perfect temperature we should aim for. …

You’re actually saying we should “fix” the weather but can’t can’t say when its been “fixed”? Auto repair shops would love you as a customer.

Global Warmin’ ™ mavens never seem to be able to answer that straightforward question. You say its too warm, or its too cold, or too rainy, but you can’t say what it should be?

What is so daunting about this question, apart from the obvious that no one with an agenda to “fix” the climate has given it any thought?

 

[Valke2]

You’re actually saying we should “fix” the weather but can’t can’t say when its been “fixed”? Auto repair shops would love you as a customer.

Global Warmin’ ™ mavens never seem to be able to answer that straightforward question. You say its too warm, or its too cold, or too rainy, but you can’t say what it should be?

What is so daunting about this question, apart from the obvious that no one with an agenda to “fix” the climate has given it any thought?

At this point, the goal is to prevent the global mean temperture from increasing at an accelerated rate.

 

[vz71]

Yes no one is denying it has changed before. But climate changes for a reason. It just doesn;t go hey now I am going to be a hot climate or I want to be a dry climate or whatever. I guess I donlt get how it is so hard for people to get that man could have an affect on the climate. And no one is saying that natural forces aren;t playing a part they are. But just because climate changed in the past doesn;t mean we should just go oh well obviously the same things must be happening now and I am sure man is having no effect.

When you can turn on the news and see a volcano spewing forth more CO2 then man makes in a year in a single day you begin to have an understanding of how vast the forces at work are and how insignificant an impact man has upon them.

 

[Arclight]

At this point, the goal is to prevent the global mean temperture from increasing at an accelerated rate.

So the proper rate would be, say,the rate found in the year 1980? 1945? Shouldn’t we allow the return of grape growing to England?

 

[vz71]

But yeah I agree with what you said. I donlt really get that argument either.

What it means is that climate change happens whether or not man is around. To blame man for any type of climate change, you must first be able to fully explain how climate change happens and why it happens.

Thus far the model that can do this is lacking.
All that is left is idle speculation that defies logic.

 

[vz71]

At this point, the goal is to prevent the global mean temperture from increasing at an accelerated rate.

Why?
Who dares to claim that this climate is better then a warmer one…or a cooler one?
Who claims to know whether the world would be better in such a climate?

There are no models to cover this, just blind supposition.

Does the word hubris mean anything to anybody?