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estesbob
Guest
I pretty much dismiss out of hand anyone who refers to those who disagred with them as deniers. Especially when it comes from groups who have a financial interest in proving global warming is real.
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frobert
Guest
I suppose you also dismiss any arguments as out of hand any group who have a financial such as oil companies, coal miners and big business who have a financial interest in maintaining the status quo.
If you are motives such as having a financial interest you must be consistent, right?
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estesbob
Guest
I am perfectly happy with the status quo.In fact if the Govt would stop blocking the development of new sources of fossil fuels we would be quickly be energy independent
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frobert
Guest
Thank you clarifying that your dismissal has little or nothing to do with the financial interest of the opposing positions.
A short history of America in pictures:
http://rgh.cc/albums/userpics/10001/Robert_Crumb_s_Brief_History_of_America.jpg
Crumb’s worse case scenario:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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JB_Dugan
Guest
If increased CO2 MUST cause warming…why have average global temperatures remained static for the last 10 to 15 years, while mankind dumps record amounts of this evil CO2 into our atmosphere???
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JB_Dugan
Guest
This is very amusing
I am sitting here in my armchair watching all these “learned climate scientists” out there taking measurements on glaciers and icepacks that not long ago they predicted would not be here today…
You expect me to take these “pseudo scientists” seriously…??
Yes , Leaf, I note your position on the political and the trading of carbon credits and the extortion of Industrial Nations. You are an intelligent guy, I would not have expected less.
But
If you think my last statement was outrageous…stand by for this one:
The Earth has been going through climate and temperature fluctuations since it was created by God Almighty. These “changes” continued for ions before man lit his first fire and made his minuscule contribution to natural CO2. This is historical and REAL scientific FACT.
You are refuting nothing…because (nota bene) there is no scientific evidence proving that man made CO2 is effecting the climate in any way.
I am an openminded guy. I accept real science. All I need is proof. Show me the scientific accepted experiment that officially proves man made CO2 effects the climate.
Otherwise, I see nothing more than a colossal politically motivated hoax on the same scale as Rachael Carlson and DDT, acid rain, ozone holes and alar on apples.
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JB_Dugan
Guest
Really cute!
That little cartoon reminds me of Detroit. A perfect example of Government welfare programs created to buy the votes of those who want someone to take care of them.
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weller2
Guest
Because the energy is now going into melting the Arctic ice. Data can be found upthread.
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frobert
Guest
Yep, totally agree, the government takes care of the wrong people and entities that’s why Crumb’s worse case be reality within the not too distant future.
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weller2
Guest
What…? 280ppm to 400 ppm is miniscule?
If you had 280$ and I gave you 120$ so you now have 400$, is this a miniscule change in the amount of cash you have?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/co2_10000_years.gif
But there is evidence that:
(1) CO2 level affects climate. This can be demonstrated in two ways. One is using basic physical properties of CO2 – and I described that earlier in the thread. The other route is to look at geological record of temperature and CO2 – here is a one hour lecture on that topic: climatestate.com/2013/05/23/richard-alley-the-biggest-control-knob-carbon-dioxide-in-earths-climate-history/
(2) Increase in CO2 is caused by human activity – this is demonstrated by (a) comparing CO2 levels with economic data on production of fossil fuels and (b) change in isotopic composition of atmospheric CO2.
See post #56 for overview of theory and links in posts #46 and #194 to see how these calculations are done.
Also #71 and #102 for data on melting ice cover.
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JB_Dugan
Guest
Gee, I just heard that Arctic ice is actually increasing…
.stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/arctic-ice-rapidly-growing/
Better re-check your data.
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weller2
Guest
J
JB_Dugan
Guest
I am talking about man’s contribution. It is miniscule! You seem to have all the facts and figures correct me if I am wrong…
CO2 is a natural gas that makes us a very small portion of our atmosphere.
If you had a five gallon bucket of water that represents all the CO2 in our atmosphere and you added one drop of water to the bucket…that would be man’s contribution.
Now take that bucket of water and dump it into an Olympic size swimming pool (that represents our atmosphere) Do you think it will change the temperature very much?
Nice chart. But it is meaningless since it does not show how much of the measured CO2 is man made.
I’m not a scientist. Most of that is over my head. But I will say that if you are comparing physical scientific measurements with “economic date”…That is worse than apples to oranges it is garbage in. I would expect garbage out.
I did check the older posts. I have seen your “links” and data before. I find the challenges to your posts more convincing.
You do mention THEORY. I can understand that and sort of agree. But I will remain a skeptic until the theory becomes a proven scientific fact.
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JB_Dugan
Guest
Same thing going on down south…Antarctic ice growing.
Surface or volume…whatever!
We were scared into believing that the Polar Bears would be drowned by now.
Weller…it just ain’t happening.
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Bill1940
Guest
Ah yes, the Polar Bears. May their tribe increase, and as a matter of fact it is. I hope you don’t mind a copy of something I scribbled seven years ago. I think it is just as valid and maybe more so today. Do some of you want something to worry about? Consider this:
“The Endangered Sub-species”
Bill Walsh
No, not the polar bears whose numbers went from 5,000 in 1950 to 25,000 at present, 1 but the Europeans. While the polar bears are waxing, the Europeans are waning.
While the United States has a fertility rate sufficient to replace those who die, the demographic decline of Europe casts an ominous shadow over the continent of our ancestors. Not a single European nation has a birth rate sufficient to survive intact to the end of this century. “The prognosis is grim. Between 2000 and 2050, world population will grow by more than three billion to over nine billion people, but this 50 percent increase in global population will come entirely in Asia, Africa and Latin America, as one hundred million people of European stock vanish from the earth.” 2
In Russia, two thirds of all pregnancies are aborted. In Germany, sewers have had to be redesigned to work with lower flows and in some parts of that country, the wolf is literally at the door. Wolves are returning to areas from which they had been driven by centuries of dense settlement. The invasion of the wolf is a manifestation of nature asserting herself and filling every niche and void.
According to a UN report published in February 2001, Europe will lose almost a quarter of its indigenous population by the year 2050. Not since the Black Death of the Fourteenth Century has Europe been confronted with such a demographic crisis. The Plague killed a third of the people in Europe, but a loss of a quarter of the population by infertility is actually a worse situation. The Plague was democratic, taking, without discrimination, the old and the young. Infertility takes only the young, while leaving the old dependent, and a burden on those too few to support them. 3
It takes a fertility rate of 2.1 children per woman to make up for the death rate in the developed world. A partial excerpt from the World Population Data Sheet 4 tells the story:
France, Norway, Denmark and Finland have fertility rates of 1.8; Serbia, Montenegro, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands and Sweden have 1.7; Luxembourg, Belgium and Cyprus have 1.6; Malta and Estonia have 1.5; Georgia, Russia, Austria, Portugal and Switzerland have 1.4; Romania, Lithuania, Croatia, Spain, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria, Italy and Germany have 1.3; and barely keeping up at a fertility rate of 1.2 children per woman, are Moldova, Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Czech Republic, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia and Slovenia. That Saudi Arabia’s fertility rate of 4.5 and Pakistan’s rate of 6.3 are typical of Moslem countries tells the rest of the story.
What has happened to the inhabitants of what was once the Christian Continent? The people who received the Gospel and commingled with it: the intellectuality of the Greeks, the practicality of the Romans and the vitality of the Celts and the Teutons to bestow the brilliance of Western Civilization upon a world that had grown dark. Has the rich soil of the continent from which sprang forth Renaissance, Enlightenment, Science and Industry gone fallow? Perhaps it is diagnostic to note that the preamble to the constitution of the European Union deliberately makes no mention of God or that Europe has any Christian roots. “Let us put this in different terms: the attempt, carried to extremes, to shape human affairs to the total exclusion of God leads us more and more to the brink of the abyss, toward the utter annihilation of man.” 5
The influx of the Muslims to Europe is in perfect accordance with nature as she persistently displays her aversion to any vacuum. No hospitable space remains long vacant; nor does lucrative work go undone. Europeans, loath to procreate - new hands to take up the plow, see other hands come from afar to till their soil, and the day is not distant when these hands will rule their land. They will replace crosses with crescents and fill the empty churches and the great cathedrals, calling them mosques. Christian bells will fall silent, no longer calling the faithful to Mass. The hills and vales will instead reverberate to the Muezzin chanting the Adhan.
2 “Death of the West”, by Patrick Buchanan
3 Ibid.
4 “Population Reference Bureau”, 2005
5 Christianity and the Crisis of Cultures, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
(Pope Benedict XVI)
“The Endangered Sub-species”
Bill Walsh
No, not the polar bears whose numbers went from 5,000 in 1950 to 25,000 at present, 1 but the Europeans. While the polar bears are waxing, the Europeans are waning.
While the United States has a fertility rate sufficient to replace those who die, the demographic decline of Europe casts an ominous shadow over the continent of our ancestors. Not a single European nation has a birth rate sufficient to survive intact to the end of this century. “The prognosis is grim. Between 2000 and 2050, world population will grow by more than three billion to over nine billion people, but this 50 percent increase in global population will come entirely in Asia, Africa and Latin America, as one hundred million people of European stock vanish from the earth.” 2
In Russia, two thirds of all pregnancies are aborted. In Germany, sewers have had to be redesigned to work with lower flows and in some parts of that country, the wolf is literally at the door. Wolves are returning to areas from which they had been driven by centuries of dense settlement. The invasion of the wolf is a manifestation of nature asserting herself and filling every niche and void.
According to a UN report published in February 2001, Europe will lose almost a quarter of its indigenous population by the year 2050. Not since the Black Death of the Fourteenth Century has Europe been confronted with such a demographic crisis. The Plague killed a third of the people in Europe, but a loss of a quarter of the population by infertility is actually a worse situation. The Plague was democratic, taking, without discrimination, the old and the young. Infertility takes only the young, while leaving the old dependent, and a burden on those too few to support them. 3
It takes a fertility rate of 2.1 children per woman to make up for the death rate in the developed world. A partial excerpt from the World Population Data Sheet 4 tells the story:
France, Norway, Denmark and Finland have fertility rates of 1.8; Serbia, Montenegro, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands and Sweden have 1.7; Luxembourg, Belgium and Cyprus have 1.6; Malta and Estonia have 1.5; Georgia, Russia, Austria, Portugal and Switzerland have 1.4; Romania, Lithuania, Croatia, Spain, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria, Italy and Germany have 1.3; and barely keeping up at a fertility rate of 1.2 children per woman, are Moldova, Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Czech Republic, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia and Slovenia. That Saudi Arabia’s fertility rate of 4.5 and Pakistan’s rate of 6.3 are typical of Moslem countries tells the rest of the story.
What has happened to the inhabitants of what was once the Christian Continent? The people who received the Gospel and commingled with it: the intellectuality of the Greeks, the practicality of the Romans and the vitality of the Celts and the Teutons to bestow the brilliance of Western Civilization upon a world that had grown dark. Has the rich soil of the continent from which sprang forth Renaissance, Enlightenment, Science and Industry gone fallow? Perhaps it is diagnostic to note that the preamble to the constitution of the European Union deliberately makes no mention of God or that Europe has any Christian roots. “Let us put this in different terms: the attempt, carried to extremes, to shape human affairs to the total exclusion of God leads us more and more to the brink of the abyss, toward the utter annihilation of man.” 5
The influx of the Muslims to Europe is in perfect accordance with nature as she persistently displays her aversion to any vacuum. No hospitable space remains long vacant; nor does lucrative work go undone. Europeans, loath to procreate - new hands to take up the plow, see other hands come from afar to till their soil, and the day is not distant when these hands will rule their land. They will replace crosses with crescents and fill the empty churches and the great cathedrals, calling them mosques. Christian bells will fall silent, no longer calling the faithful to Mass. The hills and vales will instead reverberate to the Muezzin chanting the Adhan.
Code:
1 The “American Hunter”, March 20073 Ibid.
4 “Population Reference Bureau”, 2005
5 Christianity and the Crisis of Cultures, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
(Pope Benedict XVI)
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
If you read the NASA report on the Antarctic you will see that the growth of ice there is nowhere near as great as the loss in the Arctic, so there is still a sizable net loss of ice, which is going into rising sea levels. Forget about the polar bears. Consider the millions of people who will be displaced from their homes when the sea covers them.
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JB_Dugan
Guest
I am aware of the net loss of ice…but latest measurements show an increase. Based on all previous crisis warnings about the “massive increase of man made CO2 pouring into our atmosphere”…one would expect the North and South poles to be tropical wonderlands.
With all the “horror predictions” from the political scientists failing to appear, one would think its about time for legitimate scientists to consider something other than man made CO2 as evil.
Forget about the polar bears.???
How can I forget about the Polar Bears when I still get letters from Mrs Puddles sixth grade class telling me my company is killing all the baby Polar Bears.???
When can we expect this piece of the sky to fall, Mr Gore…ooops, I mean Leaf.
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frobert
Guest
Do you think that the waning birth rate is a natural phenomena? Take for example the growing number of young men in Japan that no longer plan to have sex or get married, the reduction in sperm volume worldwide and the growing number of asexuals. This along with the low birth rate in most of the world outside of Africa. Perhaps something is going on that science is not able to measure.
We certainly live in interesting times.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Are you claiming that the net loss of global ice has been reversed? I don’t think you understood whatever report you got that from. The “increases” you refer to are not global, but are only in a few places. If you know of report that shows the total ice on earth has actually increased in recent times, please cite the article so I can read it for myself and learn the error of my ways.
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JB_Dugan
Guest
Nope. I never said anything about “global” ice…did I?
I was referring to POLAR ice, you know North Pole, South Pole, the Arctic and Antarctic…where the latest reports show that ice is INCREASING.
Now if I remember correctly it was not that long ago that our exaulted climate alarmists were telling us that the Poles would be ice free…if we didn’t stop driving SUVs and burning coal.
Al Gore told us back in 2006 that the Earth only had 10 more years left and some other dim-wit pseudo scientist promised snow free Hymilayas. At least he had the courtesy to go into hiding…Gore is still around.
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