Gloria and Credo

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I just had a question about a possible abuse…
The parish I am a member of (but don’t attend Mass at regularly) is a very modern and “progressive” parish. I was at Mass there today, and neither the Gloria nor the Creed were said/sung. Does this affect the validity of the Mass?
 
Assuming you attended a Latin rite mass, charity demands that you assume that their omission was simple error, though it is illicit.

There are only FOUR THINGS that render a Mass invalid. All but one are easy to ascertain.
  1. Lack of proper matter: pure wheat bread and pure grape wine.
  2. Lack of proper form–that is, mangling the appropriate Words of Consecration so that they do not clearly mean the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.
  3. Lack of proper minister: a canonically ordained Bishop or Priest.
  4. Lack of intention to accomplish the Mystery of the Eucharist. This one is hard to prove. If a true priest has gone to the trouble of putting on the vestments, saying the prayers, and performing the ceremonial actions, intention is presumed.
Omission of the Gloria and Credo are not among these four.
 
As bpbasilphx said, the omission of the Credo and Gloria wouldn’t invalidate the Mass, but it would be termed “illicit”.

On the Gloria, the General Instruction on the Roman Missal says this:

“[the Gloria] is sung or said on Sundays outside the Seasons of Advent and Lent, on solemnities and feasts, and at special celebrations of a more solemn character.”

Regarding the Credo, the GIRM says the following:

“68. The Creed is to be sung or said by the priest together with the people on Sundays and Solemnities. It may be said also at particular celebrations of a more solemn character.”

-So, while the Gloria will not be recited during the current Advent season, for example, the Creed is still to be said/sung each Sunday. There are some exceptions, though - sometimes (for example, if there is a baptism taking place) a renewal of baptismal promises may take place instead of the Credo.

(Link to the GIRM - HERE)
 
I was at Mass there today, and neither the Gloria nor the Creed were said/sung. Does this affect the validity of the Mass?
No, not the validity, just the licitness. It is a liturgical abuse to omit them, unless some other approved rite was joined with the Mass in such a way as to replace them. Was there anything else out of the ordinary?
 
I just had a question about a possible abuse…
The parish I am a member of (but don’t attend Mass at regularly) is a very modern and “progressive” parish. I was at Mass there today, and neither the Gloria nor the Creed were said/sung. Does this affect the validity of the Mass?
no not necessarily it depends on why they were omitted. Was there a baptism, or rite of acceptance for catechumens or something else happening? is this a regular practice? what is the reason given? the best course is ALWAYS to simply politely ask the priest and listen to his explanation first before assuming some abuse is taking place. validity refers to the confection of the Eucharist, the sacrament, licit refers to the rubrics themselves, the words and actions of the Mass.
 
Sorry, I had forgotten about this thread.

No, there was nothing “out of the ordinary” about this Mass (baptism, etc.) besides the lack of Credo and Gloria. But I try to avoid that parish as much as possible. The next time I do attend a Mass there, and if it happens again, I will be sure to ask the priest.

If he doesn’t give a very good reason or refuses to change it, would the next step be contacting the Bishop?
 
Sorry, I had forgotten about this thread.

No, there was nothing “out of the ordinary” about this Mass (baptism, etc.) besides the lack of Credo and Gloria. But I try to avoid that parish as much as possible. The next time I do attend a Mass there, and if it happens again, I will be sure to ask the priest.

If he doesn’t give a very good reason or refuses to change it, would the next step be contacting the Bishop?
Nobody appointed you the district’s liturgical policeman. It’s very likely that someone who is a MEMBER of the parish involved has already done so.

If you are not a member of this parish, MYOB!
 
Sorry, I had forgotten about this thread.

No, there was nothing “out of the ordinary” about this Mass (baptism, etc.) besides the lack of Credo and Gloria. But I try to avoid that parish as much as possible. The next time I do attend a Mass there, and if it happens again, I will be sure to ask the priest.

If he doesn’t give a very good reason or refuses to change it, would the next step be contacting the Bishop?
OK, so you joined this board on Nov 15 to make a post complaining about a parish you attended. You post nothing after that yet a month later you return to ask what the next step would be to complain about this parish/priest.
Since its not your parish, I’d suggest just letting it go. It appears that you are just looking for a reason to stir up a problem with the “progressive” pastor that you don’t like.
 
Feel free to write to the Bishop and/or Vatican. From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
“[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.”

Regarding the Creed, from the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“68. The Creed is to be sung or said by the priest together with the people on Sundays and Solemnities. It may be said also at particular celebrations of a more solemn character.”

The 2002 Roman Missal’s Order of Mass, n. 19, allows either the Nicene or Apostles Creed at any Mass. (Missale Romanum, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2002, ISBN: 8820972719, page 513).

The Creed is optional when there are the Scrutinies, (prayers for the elect who are to be baptised a few weeks later.) From the book Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults: “… then, if required, the profession of faith is said. But for pastoral reasons these general intercessions and the profession of faith may be omitted.” (RCIA, n. 143, 157, 164 edition for Australia and England, n. 156, 170, 177 in the editon for the USA.).

The usual time for the Scrutinies is the Third, Fourth and Fifth Sundays of Lent. But it can be done at other times during the year, except Solemnities. (USA RCIA, n. 146, Australia RCIA n. 133).

At the Easter Vigil there is a renewal of baptismal promises, instead of the Creed.

The Creed is not said if there is a baptism in the Mass. (Rite of Baptism for Children, n. 29, The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 374).

And if there is a confirmation at Mass, from the Rite of Confirmation (Rite of Confirmation, n. 31. The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, page 492).

Nor if there is an ordination of a deacon, priest or bishop in the Mass, from the rite of “Ordination of Deacons, Priests and Bishops” (The Rites Volume Two, Liturgical Press, 1991, ISBN: 0-8146-6037-1, pages 28, 39, 66).

Nor if there is a consecration to a life of virginity in the Mass: (The Rites Volume Two, Liturgical Press, 1991, ISBN: 0-8146-6037-1, page 161, 177).

Nor if there is a rite of religious profession in the Mass,
for a temporary profession by a man: (The Rites Volume Two, Liturgical Press, 1991, ISBN: 0-8146-6037-1, page 213).
the same for a perpetual profession by a man, n. 52(b), page 221.
same if a man renews his vows, n. 83(b), page 233.
same for a women, temporary profession, 25(b), page 252.
same for a women, perpetual profession, 57(b), page 258.
same for a women, renewal of vows, 90(b), page 272.

Nor if there is a blessing of an abbot (The Rites Volume Two, Liturgical Press, 1991, ISBN: 0-8146-6037-1, page 304.
Same for the blessing of an abbess, n. 10, page 314.
 
\If he doesn’t give a very good reason or refuses to change it, would the next step be contacting the Bishop?\

**You have said this is a parish you do not usually attend: “avoid” was your own word, I believe.

The LAST thing this priest needs–or the Bishop–is a self-appointed lay liturgical policeman to complain to him. Don’t be a talebearer to the Bishop.

Let me conclude that whenever there is something irregular or unusual in the any service, there is usually a good, serious reason that I–or in this case, you!–don’t know about.

And just what liturgical expertise do you have to determine that what this priest (who apparently you usually don’t interact with on a pastoral level) tells you is not a “very good reason”?

**
 
I just had a question about a possible abuse…
The parish I am a member of (but don’t attend Mass at regularly) is a very modern and “progressive” parish. I was at Mass there today, and neither the Gloria nor the Creed were said/sung. Does this affect the validity of the Mass?
The Gloria is said/sung on all Sundays during Mass throughout the year except in the seasons of Advent and Lent. This is probably what is happening because we are now in the Advent season.

As for the Creed, according to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, this may only be omitted during the Easter Vigil and on Easter Sunday (but not on other Sundays of Easter Season). The renewal of baptismal promises and sprinkling with holy water replaces the Creed at this time. Likewise, whenever baptism or confirmation is celebrated during Mass the profession of faith is omitted because the baptismal promises are either made or renewed during the rite.

Some parishes implement what is called The Book of Blessings. It does not form part of the Latin original but are approved supplements for the United States. There is a noticeable absence of the Creed or its use in the supplements. During the Advent season, it mentions that the blessing of the Nativity or Advent Wreath takes place on the First Sunday of Advent (BB 1509), and the Order of Blessing During Mass first mentions the homily (1517), then says (in 1518), ‘The general intercessions follow.’ No mention is made of the Profession of Faith.

Accrding to the new Latin missal the Apostles’ Creed may be used during Lent, Easter and at Masses for Children. Some countries have received permission to use the Apostles’ Creed every Sunday.

Don’t know if this helps, but you can always ask the priest as to why this is done.
 
For all we know the parish priest was on hospital duty and received a anointing call right before Mass and was simply “pushing things along” in order to get to the hospital sooner. That does happen every once and a while. While it may be illicit to omit the Creed and Gloria, it would also be understandable under those conditions.
Or maybe the priest isn’t feeling well and couldn’t get coverage.
Or maybe he was really tired and accidentally slipped into “daily mass mode.”

The bottom line is, we don’t know.
 
…Accrding to the new Latin missal the Apostles’ Creed may be used during Lent, Easter and at Masses for Children. Some countries have received permission to use the Apostles’ Creed every Sunday. …
My understanding is that the Apostles’ Creed can be used at any Sunday Mass, anywhere in the world.

Dennis Smolarski S.J. wrote that one of the changes in the 2002 Roman Missal was:
“The Apostles’ Creed is permitted as an option to the Nicene Creed, especially during Lent and the Easter Season (O) 2002 Order of Mass 19.”

The part of the Order of Mass he is referring to is this rubric:
“19. Loco symboli nicaeno-constantinopolitani, praesertim tempore Quadragesimae et tempore paschali, adhiberi potest symbolum baptismale Ecclesiae Romanae sic dictum Apostolorum.”

References:
Dennis Smolarski, The General Instruction of the Roman Missal 1969-2002 A Commentary, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 2003, ISBN 0-8146-2936-9, page 72.
Missale Romanum, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2002, ISBN: 8820972719, page 513.
 
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