Glorifying and worshiping God?

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Greetings and peace to all of you,

Perhaps someone can help explain why Christians talk about glorifying God and the need to worship him. God is self-sufficient and lacks nothing and is perfectly glorious without needing to be glorified, right? Is glorifying and worship really for our benefit and how or is it for the revelation of the gospel which is not self-evident and dependent on human evangelism? I am seeking understanding and truth not contentious debate so I deeply appreciate any response.

On a side note I was struck by how many heartfelt prayer requests are on this forum. It is truly a suffering world and I will pray for the ministry here to bring comfort to those in distress.

_/_ Fred
 
Greetings and peace to all of you,

Perhaps someone can help explain why Christians talk about glorifying God and the need to worship him. God is self-sufficient and lacks nothing and is perfectly glorious without needing to be glorified, right? Is glorifying and worship really for our benefit and how or is it for the revelation of the gospel which is not self-evident and dependent on human evangelism? I am seeking understanding and truth not contentious debate so I deeply appreciate any response.

On a side note I was struck by how many heartfelt prayer requests are on this forum. It is truly a suffering world and I will pray for the ministry here to bring comfort to those in distress.

_/_ Fred
Hi ZenFred!

I think you’re right in that God doesn’t need our glory or our praise. For me, though, when I feel His love that he has poured into my heart, I cannot help but to thank, glorify, and praise Him. It’s just a natural outpouring of our love for him because we can know Him personally and have an intimate relationship with Him if we ask Him for that.

Thank you for your prayers and we’ll pray for you too!
 
Gratitude and awe

Our gratitude to God is overwhelming, and whatever words we use, the intention is gratitude and love to God for His goodness and His gifts. We are expressing our gratitude and awe.
 
Simca,

Your response was very helpful in its simplicity. It does make sense that worship and praising the God that “first loved us” is a natural reaction of the greatness of the treasure we are given so freely. I was overthinking it.

In my own practice I demonstrate devotion not because it is required from me, for god dwells within me regardless of my piety, but because I hunger and thirst after the still quiet place where God’s presence is found. If I have a bad day or week or decade and neglect my practice, the “peace that passes understanding” is always there awaiting me to seek it anew each time and in fact every moment in It’s presence is as fresh as the first glimpse of it. For that I am truly thankful.

Thank you and may you know this peace of The Lord in each momement,
Fred
 
Ive asked myself that a few times, some bible verses that state our God is one who is jealous and likes to be worshiped, but other verses show him in a different light…? Ive often wondered if God is so all-powerful, why would be so jealous about being worshiped or even want to be worshiped at all?
 
CCC

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. “All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God.” It is in the Church that “the fullness of the means of salvation” has been deposited. It is in her that “by the grace of God we acquire holiness.”

III. “THE WORLD WAS CREATED FOR THE GLORY OF GOD”

293 Scripture and Tradition never cease to teach and celebrate this fundamental truth: “The world was made for the glory of God.” St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things “not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it”, for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: “Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand.” The First Vatican Council explains:

This one, true God, of his own goodness and “almighty power”, not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel “and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . .”
The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us “to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace”, for “the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man’s life is the vision of God: if God’s revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word’s manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God.” The ultimate purpose of creation is that God “who is the creator of all things may at last become “all in all”, thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude.”

Peace
 
Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’** 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Footnotes:
a.Matthew 22:37 Deut. 6:5
b.Matthew 22:39 Lev. 19:18**
 
CCC

The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created.
Hazcompat,

Thank you for your research and thought on the topic. The above quote I think helps point out that “glory” really means something different in context of divine glory. God’s glory seems related directly to His revelation, right?

As a Zen practitioner, we choose not to rely on revelation (which requires faith to accept), but direct experience of reality. This is not to say that your Catholic/Christian revelation is wrong or rejected, but from a personal perspective for me that is unknowable. But that is a very different discussion 😃

I have been impressed by the quick and thoughtful responses here. I have asked questions on other apologetic forums with a much weaker response. I am grateful that you all are willing to share your truth and wisdom with me.

-Fred
 
Hazcompat,

Thank you for your research and thought on the topic. The above quote I think helps point out that “glory” really means something different in context of divine glory. God’s glory seems related directly to His revelation, right?

As a Zen practitioner, we choose not to rely on revelation (which requires faith to accept), but direct experience of reality. This is not to say that your Catholic/Christian revelation is wrong or rejected, but from a personal perspective for me that is unknowable. But that is a very different discussion 😃

I have been impressed by the quick and thoughtful responses here. I have asked questions on other apologetic forums with a much weaker response. I am grateful that you all are willing to share your truth and wisdom with me.

-Fred
You are created for the very purpose of the “direct experience of reality” of God. Prayer is the point of departure, faith is the path, union with God is the goal.

From the Journey of the Mind to God by Saint Bonaventure
Mystical wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit

Christ is both the way and the door. Christ is the staircase and the vehicle, like the throne of mercy over the Ark of the Covenant, and the mystery hidden from the ages. A man should turn his full attention to this throne of mercy, and should gaze at him hanging on the cross, full of faith, hope and charity, devoted, full of wonder and joy, marked by gratitude, and open to praise and jubilation. Then such a man will make with Christ a pasch, that is, a passing-over. Through the branches of the cross he will pass over the Red Sea, leaving Egypt and entering the desert. There he will taste the hidden manna, and rest with Christ in the sepulcher, as if he were dead to things outside. He will experience, as much as is possible for one who is still living, what was promised to the thief who hung beside Christ: Today you will be with me in paradise.

For this passover to be perfect, we must suspend all the operations of the mind and we must transform the peak of our affections, directing them to God alone. This is a sacred mystical experience. It cannot be comprehended by anyone unless he surrenders himself to it; nor can he surrender himself to it unless he longs for it; nor can he long for it unless the Holy Spirit, whom Christ sent into the world, should come and inflame his innermost soul. Hence the Apostle says that this mystical wisdom is revealed by the Holy Spirit.

If you ask how such things can occur, seek the answer in God’s grace, not in doctrine; in the longing of the will, not in the understanding; in the sighs of prayer, not in research; seek the bridegroom not the teacher; God and not man; darkness not daylight; and look not to the light but rather to the raging fire that carries the soul to God with intense fervor and glowing love. The fire is God, and the furnace is in Jerusalem, fired by Christ in the ardor of his loving passion. Only he understood this who said: My soul chose hanging and my bones death. Anyone who cherishes this kind of death can see God, for it is certainly true that: No man can look upon me and live.

Let us die, then, and enter into the darkness, silencing our anxieties, our passions and all the fantasies of our imagination. Let us pass over with the crucified Christ from this world to the Father, so that, when the Father has shown himself to us, we can say with Philip: It is enough. We may hear with Paul: My grace is sufficient for you; and we can rejoice with David, saying: My flesh and my heart fail me, but God is the strength of my heart and my heritage for ever. Blessed be the Lord for ever, and let all the people say: Amen. Amen!

Peace
 
JOHN OF RUYSBROECK

WHEN we have thus become seeing, we can behold in joy the eternal coming of our Bridegroom; and that is the second point of which we would speak. What is this coming of our Bridegroom which is eternal?

It is the new birth and a new enlightenment without interruption; for the ground from which the Light shines forth, and which is the Light itself, is life-giving and fruitful, and therefore the manifestation of the Eternal Light is renewed without ceasing in the hiddenness of the spirit. Behold, every creaturely work, and every exercise of virtue, must here cease; for here God works alone in the high nobility of the spirit. And here there is nothing but an eternal seeing and staring at that Light, by that Light, and in that Light. And the coming of the Bridegroom is so swift that He is perpetually coming, and yet dwelling within with unfathomable riches; and ever coming anew, in His Person, without interruption, with such new brightness that it seems as though he had never come before. For His coming consists, beyond time, in an eternal NOW, which is ever received with new longings and new joy. Behold, the delight and the joy which this Bridegroom brings with Him in His coming are boundless and without measure, for they are Himself. And this is why the eyes with which the spirit sees and gazes at its Bridegroom, have opened so wide
that they can never close again. For the spirit continues for ever to see and to stare at the secret manifestation of God.

Peace

His light is better than life!
 
Hazcompat,

Ummm… I agree… I think, not sure exactly.

That is a very interesting and compelling writing and it is a lot to digest. Do you have any suggests where I can start on the works of St. Bonaventure? According to Wikipedia, he was a prolific writer.

I also need to read Thomas Merton who is sympathetic to Zen.

I was surprised to see there are actually ordained catholic priests who are also Zen Masters. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_(Jesuit for example. Not sure what you think about that, but I’d be curious.

Lots to think about… Fred
 
JOHN OF RUYSBROECK

WHEN we have thus become seeing, we can behold in joy the eternal coming of our Bridegroom; and that is the second point of which we would speak. What is this coming of our Bridegroom which is eternal?

It is the new birth and a new enlightenment without interruption; for the ground from which the Light shines forth, and which is the Light itself, is life-giving and fruitful, and therefore the manifestation of the Eternal Light is renewed without ceasing in the hiddenness of the spirit. Behold, every creaturely work, and every exercise of virtue, must here cease; for here God works alone in the high nobility of the spirit. And here there is nothing but an eternal seeing and staring at that Light, by that Light, and in that Light. And the coming of the Bridegroom is so swift that He is perpetually coming, and yet dwelling within with unfathomable riches; and ever coming anew, in His Person, without interruption, with such new brightness that it seems as though he had never come before. For His coming consists, beyond time, in an eternal NOW, which is ever received with new longings and new joy. Behold, the delight and the joy which this Bridegroom brings with Him in His coming are boundless and without measure, for they are Himself. And this is why the eyes with which the spirit sees and gazes at its Bridegroom, have opened so wide
that they can never close again. For the spirit continues for ever to see and to stare at the secret manifestation of God.

Peace

His light is better than life!
And I definitely agree with that… wow. Lots of great stuff there.
 
Peace and all good Fred.

www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/…/1221-1274,_Bonaventura,_The_J…‎

ccel.org/ccel/bonaventure/journey.html

The one you seek, seeks you.

Ephesians 3:14 This, then, is what I pray, kneeling before the Father, 15 from whom every fatherhood, in heaven or on earth, takes its name. 16 In the abundance of his glory may he, through his Spirit, enable you to grow firm in power with regard to your inner self, 17 so that Christ may live in your hearts through faith, and then, planted in love and built on love, 18 with all God’s holy people you will have the strength to grasp the breadth and the length, the height and the depth;19 so that, knowing the love of Christ, which is beyond knowledge, you may be filled with the utter fullness of God

Peace
 
“Now to him who is able to do immeasurable more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.”

I am beyond words at the moment. You describe as much as can be described what I encounter in my zazen meditations.

I really would like to continue to discuss things with you, should we stay in this thread or do private messages or personal email?
 
hi, i am catholic, …I love the buddists-their meditation, …admireing their life style and their peaceful temples…( i always remember the advise a buddist monk provided me, in his irony of humor:“pray hard…)😉
to begin…on a 50/50 chance i might say something of help, i suppose it boils down to impulse; Thomas Merton uses the word …“spontaneity…” in his book , New Seeds of Contemplation…i add, for your consideration-if helpful…As holiness is a process, to give God glory…Glory is on the edge of emotion, begins in spontaneity and concludes in joy; yet it seems i have no great glory of my own/surely it is a humble moment/ if holiness is a process-the glory concludes as in ‘i give God glory,’ i.e…’ tells about the context in which the person says the phrase…a by-stander might watch and ask:…is he very deeply alive and showing it?
is he showing a sign of spiritual life?
is he doing a sort of applause to join in heaven’s praise?
Is what he is doing in public worship, then to quinch the thirst of lonliness?
or -does heaven have a rythum and a drum beat-that men on earth-join heaven-by impulse?
…or further context: to make it personal:“i give, Thee, Glory my Lord…” which shows a personalization…and it ‘feels’ wonderful to say it…and there is a joy in the moment; so the phrase must be evidence of something deeply felt from a spiritual affect on a person…while the word ‘worship’ includes at least public prayer, / in context, to adore could be in the chapel-or in private meditation…
so i end with a question with your question-as i am not perfect in my attempts; but, Would i best give God glory, for what it benefits me-as God has no needs…?”

thx patrick
and Oh, i was thinking 5 minutes before i read your post…as yes…this forum allows opportunity for souls to ask for prayers, that it cannot be ignored their degree of suffering…well best regards, patrick
 
Greetings and peace to all of you,

Perhaps someone can help explain why Christians talk about glorifying God and the need to worship him. God is self-sufficient and lacks nothing and is perfectly glorious without needing to be glorified, right? Is glorifying and worship really for our benefit and how or is it for the revelation of the gospel which is not self-evident and dependent on human evangelism? I am seeking understanding and truth not contentious debate so I deeply appreciate any response.

On a side note I was struck by how many heartfelt prayer requests are on this forum. It is truly a suffering world and I will pray for the ministry here to bring comfort to those in distress.

_/_ Fred
The Ultimate Reality, the self-existent Logos at the foundation of our universe, is no less a personal being than you or I, albeit an ineffably superior one. God is goodness personified. All one could desire: total satisfaction, peace, and harmony- love-emanates from this being and engulfs those in it’s presence. Complete and uncompromised happiness is the result, leaving one breathless, one’s heart leaping, one’s spirit soaring. To the extent that we know God, we can’t help but worship God. The goal is to know Him that way continuously.
 
“Now to him who is able to do immeasurable more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.”

I am beyond words at the moment. You describe as much as can be described what I encounter in my zazen meditations.

I really would like to continue to discuss things with you, should we stay in this thread or do private messages or personal email?
I like the forum as other pilgrims might benefit and/or add to the conversation. I woke up this morning with a cold, my responses may be slower or delayed but i will stay engaged. You can PM me if you feel the need to do so.

This occupation, in which the spirit interiorly assimilates the content of faith is meditation. Here the imagination presents itself with images of events in salvation history, seeks to plumb their depths with all the senses, weighs with the intellect their general meaning and the demands they place on one. In this way the will is inspired to love and to resolve to form a lifestyle in the spirit of faith. John knows an even higher form of meditation:8 a spirit that is richly endowed and vibrant by nature penetrates by means of the intellect deep into the truths of faith. It carries on a dialogue with itself, investigating all sides, proceeding thought by thought and discovering their intrinsic connections. This activity becomes even livelier, easier, and more fruitful when the Holy Spirit gives the human spirit wings and bears it aloft. The spirit feels itself so thoroughly in the hand of a superior power and enlightened by this power, that it appears to itself to have ceased all activity of its own and to be, instead, receiving instruction through divine revelation.

Stein, Edith (2011-03-17). The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) (Kindle Locations 2144-2151). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.

Peace
 
Hazcompt,

I think you’ve helped “convert” me back in a sense. Perhaps I wouldn’t call it that but I definitely have a deeper appreciation for the wealth of diversity within the church and am comfortable with having a place at the Eucharistic table. So thank you.

I found a collected works of John and started reading it. Lots of great quotes I just pulled out one.

“The fifth kind are all those who, above all outward works of charity, have their sojourn in heaven, and are noughted and lost in God, and God in them, so that there is no other thing between God and them but time and their mortal nature.” JOHN OF RUYSBROECK, adornment of the spiritual marriage, chapter 10

And the last sentence of your previous quote:

“The spirit feels itself so thoroughly in the hand of a superior power and enlightened by this power, that it appears to itself to have ceased all activity of its own and to be, instead, receiving instruction through divine revelation.”

So not sure how much you know about Zen in particular but it teaches that thought is an illusion and there is an underlying “universal mind”/true nature/Buddha-nature" and we experience (kensho in Japanese) that directly through sitting meditation. But that is just an attempt to describe the indescribable. And that “emptiness” (satori) I encounter in meditation sure feels “divine” and at the same time compassionate. It reminds me of Acts 17 the unknown God. John and St. Theresa explain this same experience.

I suppose as a buddhist I could say they are experiencing this same indiscribleness and naming it “Christ” is a mistake or an attachment. But yet john describes it more fully and his words resonate more deeply somehow. Perhaps it is the buddhist who sense that Acts 17 God yet fail to name Him. John talks about the second coming of Christ in the present and I have experience of that which to me is self-evident. I can and do have faith in the present presence of Christ and indeed a triune God. Intellectual belief and faith in the events of the past fall away in face of the eternal now-ness.

I think I am still buddhist though, the four noble truths and the teaching (dharma) still hold a key to liberation of falsely identifying with my thoughts and mortal concerns. My “true nature” is a soul fully justified and at union with God, right?

So still meditate?
Still study buddhist teachings and under a teacher?
Still chant and bow and do rituals in knowledge of their true aim?
I suppose like anything in Zen the answer is both yes and no and neither.

I’ll work on finishing john’s works and time in prayer, meditation, and reflection. Cause right now I’m pretty muddled.

Take your time if you need to respond. I will be praying for you. “May you be healthy and at ease in all your ills.”
Fred
 
Fred,

Thank you for your prayers.You are body, soul, and spirit. Meditative prayer is part of the point of departure. Without God we can do nothing. Contempletive prayer is not achieved, it is received. If you learn to pray with your mind in your heart you can progress to a point. Seek to understand what ceaseless prayer is. Find a good spiritual director and confessor. If you love God, he will use everything for your good. If you read Blessed John, read “The Sparkling Stone” first.

ccel.org/ccel/ruysbroeck/adornment.html

You should be praying while you read books about prayer.

Peace
 
Hazcompat.
I think Zen, particularly Soto Zen, has strong teachings about not trying to achieve anything. When we meditate we “just sit” and allow our thoughts and emotions to rise and diminish without controlling them but also without pursuing them. Eventually they all fall away and we experience the clear sky of no-thought. That God seeking God moment.

This “zazen” as Zen meditation is called, is also ceaseless. We take the center we gain from our sitting and apply it to our lives. When we wash the dishes, we just wash the dishes without judgment. We begin to see the presence of God within ourselves, within the soap, the dishes, all of it.

Seeking and being sought by Christ does not make me a bad Buddhist. It would only be my attachment to the labels of “Christian” or “Buddhist” that would cause me trouble. I think you would agree that if you were too attached to doctrine that you placed human opinion (on the finer points of the trinity for example) above the reality of God that it would in a sense be idolatry. C.S. Lewis in the Great Divorce talks about how theologians still hold seminars in hell 🙂

I don’t know how much you know about Buddhism and Zen, but I feel I should clarify in case you are unaware. There are dozens of traditions with Buddhism, and many schools of each, and each teacher has very different perspectives on almost every point of the teaching. I do not hold much stock in the “historical” Buddha nor in his divinity in a western sense. Most references to the Buddha, in my view, are either discussing the possibly fictional author of a collection of valued teachings (which often contradict themselves) or as a representation of the indiscernible divine nature in all things. Obviously not all Buddhists feel the same way and worship any number of “deities.”

So I think I can begin to answer some of my own questions…
So still meditate? Yes, but with recognition that I am allowing God to reveal Himself to me by weakening my human thoughts not by preforming a spiritual feat to make Him appear.

Still study Buddhist teachings and under a teacher? Yes, I will stay with my teachers who are wise and have much insight on ways of allowing our thoughts and emotions to be let go and not allow our sinful natures to drive us. But also relying on Christian teaching and not treating my Buddhist teachers as final authorities on anything, particularly not about the nature of God.

Still chant and bow and do rituals in knowledge of their true aim? Probably not, there are plenty of great Christian traditions of chanting and prayer. I think I will stay take Jukai as it is a recognition of my practice and learning as well as taking moral precepts (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_initiation_ritual).

The central proclamation of “faith” in Buddhism is taking refuge in the three jewels. “I take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.” I suppose that would remain true, since I’ve always understood “Buddha” to be ultimate divine reality beyond description. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Jewels

That’s a wall of text… haha… so take your time replying. I don’t really know if any questions per se at this point.

God’ peace that passes all understand be with you in every moment,
Fred
 
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