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twinc
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The Glory Be ends “world without end” - true or false - see 2Peter3:10 - any comments - twinc
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GrahamAPhone
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You cant just take one line
Glory be to the father, and to the son, and to the holy spirit, as it was in the beginning is now, and will be forever, a world without end
when taken all together, it is clearly talking about the Glory of God. plus it also says that the world has always been? that cant be right, but you know what has always been, is now and will be forever? God. lol. and the world consists of more than what we see
Glory be to the father, and to the son, and to the holy spirit, as it was in the beginning is now, and will be forever, a world without end
when taken all together, it is clearly talking about the Glory of God. plus it also says that the world has always been? that cant be right, but you know what has always been, is now and will be forever? God. lol. and the world consists of more than what we see
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eucharisteo
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et in sáecula sæculórum. Amen.
This is how the written down “Glory Be” prayer ends. I say it in Latin. However, I believe it never ends because it transcends time and space.
This is how the written down “Glory Be” prayer ends. I say it in Latin. However, I believe it never ends because it transcends time and space.
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Big_Ro
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Hmm?
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eucharisteo
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Eucharisted
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Word without end means “eternity”. You basically say, “…and ever shall be, eternity.” There is some speculation that “world without end” has different meanings, like, eternal life or timelessness or World to Come.
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Lead_Me_Home
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Technically the world does not completely end, Apocalypse means a new beginning.
The latin saecula saeculorum means ages of ages. Keep in mind that traditional catholic prayers are often translated from latin, however the relatively recent fatima prayer is from Portuguese i believe.
I’m happy to see i’m not the only one with these odd questions:thumbsup:
The latin saecula saeculorum means ages of ages. Keep in mind that traditional catholic prayers are often translated from latin, however the relatively recent fatima prayer is from Portuguese i believe.
I’m happy to see i’m not the only one with these odd questions:thumbsup:
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eucharisteo
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:thumbsup:Keep in mind that traditional catholic prayers are often translated from latin
It’s sort of hyperbola for eternal
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RickMK
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I have been wondering for years where the expression “world without end” came from.
I’ve asked in a lot of different places, and all I’ve found is that its origin seems to be a mystery nobody knows the answer to.
I know it goes as far back as the King James Version of the Bible, but I have no idea whether it goes back any further than that, and I’ve never seen any place where its origin has been decisively tracked down. The KJV uses the phrase twice, in Isaiah 45:17 and Ephesians 3:21; the Douay-Rheims also uses the phrase in Ephesians, but not in Isaiah.
The expression doesn’t occur literally in Latin, Greek, or Hebrew.
So where did it come from and how did it get into the Bible and the prayer?
It seems nobody knows!
Has this expression ever been used in the English language anywhere other than those 2 Bible verses and the Glory Be prayer?
I’ve asked in a lot of different places, and all I’ve found is that its origin seems to be a mystery nobody knows the answer to.
I know it goes as far back as the King James Version of the Bible, but I have no idea whether it goes back any further than that, and I’ve never seen any place where its origin has been decisively tracked down. The KJV uses the phrase twice, in Isaiah 45:17 and Ephesians 3:21; the Douay-Rheims also uses the phrase in Ephesians, but not in Isaiah.
The expression doesn’t occur literally in Latin, Greek, or Hebrew.
So where did it come from and how did it get into the Bible and the prayer?
It seems nobody knows!Has this expression ever been used in the English language anywhere other than those 2 Bible verses and the Glory Be prayer?
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eucharisteo
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That’s where you made your first mistake. It’s mostly impossible to translate directly from Latin or Greek for that matter into a language such as English were it is so complex un inconsistent that there seem to be more exceptions to the rules than there are norms. That’s why so many Traditional Catholic prefer the Latin and especially the new extraordinary mass otherwise known as TLM. The ordinary mass, originally called the novus ordo or new mass seems to be quite sterylized in comparison. If you really did deep into the church when it was in communion with the Orthodox Church or visa versa, which ever side you take, you will see a much more touchy-feely-smelly church. No not BOI have been wondering for years where the expression “world without end” came from.
I’ve asked in a lot of different places, and all I’ve found is that its origin seems to be a mystery nobody knows the answer to.
I know it goes as far back as the King James Version of the Bible, but I have no idea whether it goes back any further than that, and I’ve never seen any place where its origin has been decisively tracked down. The KJV uses the phrase twice, in Isaiah 45:17 and Ephesians 3:21; the Douay-Rheims also uses the phrase in Ephesians, but not in Isaiah.
The expression doesn’t occur literally in Latin, Greek, or Hebrew.
So where did it come from and how did it get into the Bible and the prayer?
Has this expression ever been used in the English language anywhere other than those 2 Bible verses and the Glory Be prayer?
for body odor, thought that was probably part of it in some ways. Some of the easterners really get into their particular sent I’ve heard and smelled before. But I guarantee I’ve been far worse while in the field on military exercises.One reason I started praying the rosary in Latin is because of this translation problem. Catholics and Orthodox Christians love the flowery language that often attracts the wrong kind of attention as is partly to blame for the accusations of worshiping the Blessed Mother and Saints instead of God. Protestants have lost the correct translation and because some of them are operating from ignorance and fear fail to dig deeper into it because it scares them, much like when I first started praying the rosary. I feared being damned to hell because it felt like I was placing Mary above Jesus. But now that I have an “Orthodox” understanding of her place in salvation history I understand that she must be even greater than Moses or Elijah, who was assumed into heaven too as we Catholics believe Mary was assumed. It’s quite logical and makes lots of sense even mystically when you study it more deeply. The only way is to read read read. But stick to orthodox Christian/Catholic sites for correct untwisted information about it. Flagellating at the mouth again. Weird analysis here. Why do we use the word flagellation to mean what it means in English like gaseous or over inflated when in the Latin it is used to describe the 2nd Sorrowful Mystery of the Rosary - flagellatio? Interesting, but a rhetorical question to make a point. Words change meaning over time. But when we go to a legal language like the Vulgate Latin it holds its meaning for all times. Modern day Greek is much different that the ancient Greek of Jesus’ and the Apostle’s time.
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions that I might have answers for. However, be patient, I have a large following… okay its my children not groupies… but one can wish can’t they…good use for the English meaning of flagellated ego huh?
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FCEGM
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When the Liturgy of the Hours is prayed, the doxology at the end of the psalms and canticles is said thusly: “Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen”
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eucharisteo
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My son corrects me when I say it this way out of habit from praying the Liturgy of the Hours. I smile and say “you’re right” and repeat it the “correct way”.
Kids are so cute.
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FCEGM
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My son corrects me when I say it this way out of habit from praying the Liturgy of the Hours. I smile and say “you’re right” and repeat it the “correct way”.
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Mintaka
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“in saecula saeculorum” literally means “in age of ages” or “in world of worlds” or “in generation of generations” or “in present time of present times” or…
What it actually means, more or less, is “for ever and ever”.
Latin, like English and all other languages, has a lot of words that have broad, broad meaning to them. The Latin word “saecula” is very broad!
But what we English speakers don’t appreciate is this – the word “world” is also very broad.
It can mean “the Earth”, “secular human society”, “the universe”, “planet”, “those parts of life encountered by me”, “my private viewpoint”, “all that is important to me”.
One of the old meanings of world, now forgotten, was “lifetime” or “century”. This coincided very nicely with “saecula” and with “in saecula saeculorum”.
So in the old days, one of the translations of the Glory Be ended “world of worlds”; others ended “world without end”. But they weren’t talking about a place without end, or a universe without end, but a length of time or a lifetime without end. Glory was going to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit endlessly, because all three Persons of the Holy Trinity have always been, always are, and always will be. It is God’s lifetime that is without end.
What it actually means, more or less, is “for ever and ever”.
Latin, like English and all other languages, has a lot of words that have broad, broad meaning to them. The Latin word “saecula” is very broad!
But what we English speakers don’t appreciate is this – the word “world” is also very broad.
It can mean “the Earth”, “secular human society”, “the universe”, “planet”, “those parts of life encountered by me”, “my private viewpoint”, “all that is important to me”.
One of the old meanings of world, now forgotten, was “lifetime” or “century”. This coincided very nicely with “saecula” and with “in saecula saeculorum”.
So in the old days, one of the translations of the Glory Be ended “world of worlds”; others ended “world without end”. But they weren’t talking about a place without end, or a universe without end, but a length of time or a lifetime without end. Glory was going to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit endlessly, because all three Persons of the Holy Trinity have always been, always are, and always will be. It is God’s lifetime that is without end.
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wisdomseeker
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that is exactly how i have in little protuguese rosary prayer booklet. i also do not understand this part of world without end. was this added later?
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eucharisteo
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Think flowery language.
Ever heard someone say “he shot himself in the foot”? It’s a saying. That’s similar to this. It’s a metaphor or something like that. My wife’s not around to ask. She’s my spell check too. English teachers always frustrate me because they know all this stuff.
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wisdomseeker
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it seems to me that the language is changing being modernized. strange words are coming around really fast. i have a Bible which the language is so modern that it scares me. i wonder how much meaning the words of the old has lost its meaning.Think flowery language.
Ever heard someone say “he shot himself in the foot”? It’s a saying. That’s similar to this. It’s a metaphor or something like that. My wife’s not around to ask. She’s my spell check too. English teachers always frustrate me because they know all this stuff.
O truth, you are present to those who seek your help, and at one and the same time you answer all, though they seek your counsel on different matters. You respond clearly, but not everyone hears clearly. All ask what they wish, but do not always hear the answer they wish. Your best servant is he who is intent not so much on hearing his petition answered, as rather on willing whatever he hears from you.
St Augustine****
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eucharisteo
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One of my favorite classes in high school was English Literature. I love the Old English and even started reading the KJV just for the language. However, language does change over time and so do the definitions /nuances. That’s partly why the New KJV and the ASV came about. The American Standard Version, also a Protestant bible, is very close the the KJV. I used it to study along with several other translations. In fact, I have the NIV, KJV, ASV, NASV, Greek, NAB. I used to have a massive library of resources. If I didn’t have to worry about money I would have studied ancient languages.
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thistle
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Another thread started by twinc and then no sign of him/her in the discussion.
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