Glossolalia or speaking in tongues

[ggarcia19]

We learned in my church that the gift of speaking tongues is a gift, a person should fast and pray. I don’t believe its possible for everyone to speak in tongues. I believe the person must be a strong prayer warrior.
’
At the church I grew up in, we had to pray and fast for sometimes days and nights. The fasting was a little bit different than the Catholic “LENT”. We would actually starve ourselves for sometimes days without any food, we only drink water for a whole week and no food, day and night. We would discontinue watching TV or movies. The person that speaks in tongues should be a strong prayer warrior and not just some Joe that walked in…

However, one thing that I did not agree on in my church. I did not agree that a person should have to speak in tongues for their salvation and the road to heaven…

 

[ggarcia19]

Very interesting post, Medaw. Thanks for sharing.

My perspective on tongues is that the use of it today doesn’t match with what is described in the new testament. I don’t know of pentecostal churches, or even charismatic catholic groups, for example, that utilize an interpreter. Scripture says speakers of tongues are supposed to be silent if there is no one to interpret, as has been mentioned earlier.
.

Can you give me the scripture that supports your quote? I am still working on reading the whole entire Catholic bible but I am still on the Old Testaments. Cheers…

 

[ltwin]

We learned in my church that the gift of speaking tongues is a gift, a person should fast and pray. I don’t believe its possible for everyone to speak in tongues. I believe the person must be a strong prayer warrior.
’
At the church I grew up in, we had to pray and fast for sometimes days and nights. The fasting was a little bit different than the Catholic “LENT”. We would actually starve ourselves for sometimes days without any food, we only drink water for a whole week and no food, day and night. We would discontinue watching TV or movies. The person that speaks in tongues should be a strong prayer warrior and not just some Joe that walked in…

However, one thing that I did not agree on in my church. I did not agree that a person should have to speak in tongues for their salvation and the road to heaven…

While, that’s really old school tarrying. At my church, we were taught that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is available for all born again Christians. If they ask for it, they will receive. Maybe not immediately, but we didn’t see it as something we had to jump through hoops to gain either. The tongues were rather incidental to everything. It was the sign to others that you’d received, but speaking in tongues is never the goal. Empowerment is the goal.

 

[Medawlinno]

I should add that I’m not knocking glossolalia - it’s a **very **interesting phenomenon, but I don’t think it’s spiritual in nature; more something on the deep subconcious level that seems to require the speaker be in some sort of altered state of conciousness (I don’t mean that in a negative sense at all), typically some sort of (usually religious) euphoric state.

I can’t speak to “interepreters” though, as I haven’t really looked into that aspect of glossolalia.

 

[anruari]

One Oh the documents of VC I think it was Lumen Genitum explicity States that the continued distance of miracles and of the gifts and charisms of the Holy Spirit are a essential part of the Church.
An individual member of the church is not required to manifest any such gifts or charisms and pitot or no attempt is made to formally recognise the authenticity of the vast majority of such manifestations however the denial in principle of their existence or possible validity is in direct conflict with the teaching of the church.

 

[ltwin]

I should add that I’m not knocking glossolalia - it’s a **very **interesting phenomenon, but I don’t think it’s spiritual in nature; more something on the deep subconcious level that seems to require the speaker be in some sort of altered state of conciousness (I don’t mean that in a negative sense at all), typically some sort of (usually religious) euphoric state.

I don’t think “altered states of consciousness” is really representative of most instances of glossolalia (at least among Christians). As a glossolalia speaker myself, I can tell you that I’ve spoken in tongues while driving a car, while praying in a hospital (silently), and in other situations that required I be thinking and acting in a competent manner. At these times, I was not in a ecstatic or euphoric state.

It would be a mistake to assume that episodes of religious ecstasy found in meetings characterize glossolalia. Most of the time, when someone speaks in tongues its in private prayer.

 

[Traverse]

Can you give me the scripture that supports your quote? I am still working on reading the whole entire Catholic bible but I am still on the Old Testaments. Cheers…

Certainly. This is the passage that I’m referring to…

**[1Cr 13:8-10 NASB] **
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

The “perfect” mentioned in verse 10 is where there is some disagreement. Some interpret that as being the second coming of Christ, but I understand it differently. The passage talks about the different gifts being a part of a whole, those parts being about transmitting the word of God. So the perfect, in this context, would be the culmination of that word, the complete word, which I would argue is the complete canon of scripture.

That’s a highly inaccurate statement. Use of the gift of interpretation is well established and long standing in both the classical Pentecostal churches and the newer charismatic movements (both Catholic and Protestant).

To be sneaky, I will add that it was a very accurate statement because I said I wasn’t aware of its use, not that it never happened. I certainly didn’t know!

Thanks for sharing that information with me, though. Is there anywhere I can see some interpretations that have been recorded?

1 Corinthians 13 does say they will cease but only when the perfect comes. Unless you believe the “perfect” is somehow the canon of Scripture or the maturity of the church (which I’d find to be horribly problematic interpretations given the context), I don’t see how anyone can use that passage to justify cessationism today.

You can see my opinion above. Personally, I just don’t see how the perfect could refer to anything else. Paul’s explanation that the gifts are temporary doesn’t really seem pertinent if they last until the end. When would you suggest the gifts cease?

 

[Medawlinno]

Thanks for the clarification Itwin - I’m certianly no expert on the subject; I have to wonder if the initial researchers had a limited “pool” of subjects and that was the conclusion they drew as far as when it occurs.

Admittedly, the only time I have ever seen/heard glossolalia (and not in person at that) were on tapes/videos that were recorded I believe at a service. Been quite some time since my college days when I had looked into this phenomenon!

 

[ggarcia19]

Thanks for the clarification Itwin - I’m certianly no expert on the subject; I have to wonder if the initial researchers had a limited “pool” of subjects and that was the conclusion they drew as far as when it occurs.

Admittedly, the only time I have ever seen/heard glossolalia (and not in person at that) were on tapes/videos that were recorded I believe at a service. Been quite some time since my college days when I had looked into this phenomenon!

You can watch people speak in tongues on youtube.com , I was curious the other day and I was watching the Sufi Muslims speak in tongues, I have also watched different churches that or Apostolic Pentecostal or just plain Pentecostal,

If you do decide to watch any of the videos on youtube that I have mentioned, I would sure be interested in reading your feedback. cheers:thumbsup:

 

[anruari]

From “Lumen Gentium” The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church
(note the title “Dogmatic”. the content are therefore deemed infallible as they are an act of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church acting together (in an eccumenical council) and intending to make a definitive and binding declaration).

from Para 4
The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth(15) and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits.(16) By the power of the Gospel He makes the Church keep the freshness of youth. Uninterruptedly He renews it and leads it to perfect union with its Spouse. (3*) The Spirit and the Bride both say to Jesus, the Lord, “Come!”(17)

From Para 12
It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, "allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit”.(115) These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.

The above is official, the following is my understanding:

In keeping with the Scriptural accounts of “Tongues” and its existence in “various forms”, it is clear to my understanding that the Gift of Tongues, as a supernatural spiritual gift, may take a number of forms.

1. Glossolalia. As mentioned above by others, when subject to objective scrutiny any claims that the speaker is “praying in another language, either currently or long dead” does not withstand analysis. Rather this is a time when inspired by the spirit the person praying allows the movement of the spirit within them to pray with “deep groans and sighs” which does not require the verbal mind to express. Such experiences are described in various ways by many of our sainted mystics.
2. Miraculous speech or prayer in a language the speaker does not and could not possibbly know, by which a prophetic message is delivered to a listener who does speak that language. (note this is not what is described in Acts… I’ll come to that). This is a manifestation that has been described repeatedly - especially in missionary contexts by missionaries or by those ministering to others in desperate need of evidence Gods Presence. Just because this happens occasionally does not mean that the majority of Glossolalia falls within this category.
3. Glossolalia with interpretation by another. This is different from 2). here one person prays aloud in Glossolalia during a time of public or group worship, and one or more other persons present receive a prophetic understanding from the Holy Spirit as an Interpretation of the Glossolalia.

Understanding of Tongues.
This can occur in at least 2 ways:
a) the interpreter(s) described in 3) above.
b) As described in the description of Penticost in Acts, the Apostles spoke aloud to the assembled people from many countries and each person heard and understood the speech in his own language. - As there is just 1 or a few speakers, but many listeners hearing in their own languages, then the miracle here is one of “Interpretation” not “Tongues”.
c) as a subset of b) the situation in 2) above may be a gift of miraculous interpretation to the listener just as easily as a gift of miraculous tongues in the speaker.

 

[ggarcia19]

While, that’s really old school tarrying. At my church, we were taught that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is available for all born again Christians. If they ask for it, they will receive. Maybe not immediately, but we didn’t see it as something we had to jump through hoops to gain either. The tongues were rather incidental to everything. It was the sign to others that you’d received, but speaking in tongues is never the goal. Empowerment is the goal.

I have seen preachers grab there members by the jaw and try shaking there mouth so that they could force them to speak in tongues. Have you seen this? I think its wrong, but what do you think? Honestly?

 

[ltwin]

To be sneaky, I will add that it was a very accurate statement because I said I wasn’t aware of its use, not that it never happened. I certainly didn’t know!

I point it out because I’ve seen that claim (that Pentecostal/charismatics don’t do interpretation) made often. I’m not sure where it comes from because it certainly does not reflect actual Pentecostal/charismatic practice.

Thanks for sharing that information with me, though. Is there anywhere I can see some interpretations that have been recorded?

During the racial reconciliation of the Pentecostal movement at Memphis in 1994, Jack Hayford interpreted a message that was recorded. You can watch a recording at this link. RealPlayer required.

The transcript is included on the History page of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches of North America’s website. It’s under the “Memphis Miracle” heading.

The tongues and interpretation start around 6:50. The whole video is 14:59 minutes.

You can see my opinion above. Personally, I just don’t see how the perfect could refer to anything else. Paul’s explanation that the gifts are temporary doesn’t really seem pertinent if they last until the end. When would you suggest the gifts cease?

Paul’s clearly referring to the parousia. In reading chapter 13, we need to realize that Paul is teaching the Corinthians how to place the gifts in the proper context–that context is love. Without love, the tongue-speaker is a “noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” One can have prophetic powers, all knowledge, and all faith but without love they are nothing. Everything in Paul’s thinking comes back to love. Either you have love or you have nothing. That’s the entire point from verses 1-3. From verse 4 to verse 7 we get a beautiful description of love.

Then in verse 8, Paul says, “Love never ends.” This is important. In verse 13, Paul says, “now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” Love remains even after there is no need for faith or hope because when we see Christ face to face our faith and hope will be fulfilled. But love remains because God is love, and we share in the love of the Trinity for all eternity.

Verses 8 through 12 places the role of spiritual gifts in the context of waiting for the parousia. Prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will pass away, just as faith and hope will pass away when they are no longer needed. Paul cannot be talking about the completion of the canon because verse 12 makes that impossible. He says, “now we see in a mirror dimly” (because our knowledge and our prophecy is partial) “but then face to face.” He’s talking about seeing Jesus face to face. The last sentence says, “Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” Notice that Paul is talking in the first person here. He’s expecting to know fully even as he has been fully known. This is very personal language, referring to seeing Jesus “face to face.”

 

[ltwin]

I have seen preachers grab there members by the jaw and try shaking there mouth so that they could force them to speak in tongues. Have you seen this? I think its wrong, but what do you think? Honestly?

I’ve never seen that. To be honest, that is abuse and I’m sure it grieves the Holy Spirit.

As a child, I have been in a prayer line where a preacher tries to force you to fall. I’d always do the “courtesy fall” just to get away from the preacher. I have really been slain in the Spirit at times, but I don’t believe it’s something people should expect all the time and it shouldn’t be made a “requirement.” The only thing that kind of attitude encourages is people faking. Why would we ever want to encourage people to fake the Holy Spirit’s work?

 

[Medawlinno]

Hmm…Youtube - I should have thought of that!

Now I’m kind of curious - I’ll have to check it out. I’m not at all familiar with glossolalia as it pertains to the Sufi tradition. All examples I’ve ever seen or heard from come from the Pentecostal tradition.

Depending on how clear the recordings are, I’d be looking for things like sounds that do not exist in that person’s native language - I’d be at a huge disadvantage with the Sufi tradition as, unless it’s stated where the personis from, there’s no way to know what his/her native language is.

Also would be looking for things like syllable reduplication and strong alliteration patterns, two features which seem to be fairly strong at least in the glosolalia studied here in the US. Certain vowel sounds too seem to be very frequent in the “American versions” (/i/ and /a/ being the main two)

 

[concretecamper]

speaking in tongues means nothing if there is no one able to interpret/understand what is being said. In the account of the Apostles speaking in tongues, there were people who understood what they said, in recognizable languages. Otherwise, it is simply babble.

Jon

This is the Roman Catholic position as well (that is not to say you will not find some Catholics partaking).

In fact, unless there is someone to interpret or understand, how do you know the influence is from the Holy Spirit?

 

[SteveVH]

Hmm…Youtube - I should have thought of that!

Now I’m kind of curious - I’ll have to check it out. I’m not at all familiar with glossolalia as it pertains to the Sufi tradition. All examples I’ve ever seen or heard from come from the Pentecostal tradition.

Depending on how clear the recordings are, I’d be looking for things like sounds that do not exist in that person’s native language - I’d be at a huge disadvantage with the Sufi tradition as, unless it’s stated where the personis from, there’s no way to know what his/her native language is.

Also would be looking for things like syllable reduplication and strong alliteration patterns, two features which seem to be fairly strong at least in the glosolalia studied here in the US. Certain vowel sounds too seem to be very frequent in the “American versions” (/i/ and /a/ being the main two)

The sound could be nothing more than babbling and still be valid. One charismatic nun I knew had been given only one word - ti, ti, ti, ti, ti… She just kept repeating it. One cannot determine the validity of speaking in tongues by comparing them to human syllables and alliteration patterns. There are tongues which are not meant to be understood by humans. It is the Holy Spirit praying through the one speaking.

 

[Faith1960]

There is a relatively strong Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church in the US. These also practice speaking in tongues. It’s not for everyone…and definitely not mandatory for all believers…but it is a valid aspect of the faith.

I have some friends who do this and THEY even have no clue what they’re saying so I don’t believe they’re really being moved by the Holy Spirit in prayer.

 

[ltwin]

I have some friends who do this and THEY even have no clue what they’re saying so I don’t believe they’re really being moved by the Holy Spirit in prayer.

Their experience fits the biblical description. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 14:14:

" For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful."

 

[cath4alltime]

I’ve never seen that. To be honest, that is abuse and I’m sure it grieves the Holy Spirit.

As a child, I have been in a prayer line where a preacher tries to force you to fall. I’d always do the “courtesy fall” just to get away from the preacher.

When I was a toddler, my mother took me up to get prayed for in a revival meeting. The preacher held me and (I still remember this till this day) the preacher prayered for my mom and pushed her down. I hit him in the nose for pushing my mom down, he tried to say she was slain but I saw him pushing her down.

I was slain once, a women was praying over me not touching me and I felt like I was being laid down. It was a very wonderful experience

 

[ltwin]

When I was a toddler, my mother took me up to get prayed for in a revival meeting. The preacher held me and (I still remember this till this day) the preacher prayered for my mom and pushed her down. I hit him in the nose for pushing my mom down, he tried to say she was slain but I saw him pushing her down.

This is the kind of craziness that happens when men try to institutionalize the Holy Spirit. Slaying in the Spirit is not a ritual; its a spontaneous event that in itself is neither bad nor good. But when people began to expect people to fall it produces either fake “courtesy falls” or physical abuse, both of which breed offense and unbelief.

I was slain once, a women was praying over me not touching me and I felt like I was being laid down. It was a very wonderful experience

It can be peaceful, but if there is unrepentant sin in your life and the Lord is dealing with you about it, it can put the fear of God into you. As a teenager, many times when the Spirit got to moving in our church, I’d always get scared that He would start to “work on me” and convict me of my sin.