Gloves for Servers Touching the Chalice

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As an adult alter server and Arimithean minister, I’d really worry about gloves from a purely pragmatic point of view. I have enough trouble handing the cruets and receiving them back from some preists without feeling like I am going to drop one. Gloves would make me very nervous about something slipping out of my hands.

Case in point, I will be serving this upcoming Saturday by myself and depending on how many people are present at Mass, things will move fast after I receive communion. I’ll have to retrieve the sacramentary and pillow from the altar while the priest distributes communion and place them on the table next to the presider’s chair. Then I have to get the cruet of water, bowl and towel from the credence table for the priest (and EMHC if there is one) to purify his hands. The bowl then goes back to the credence table and I head back to the altar to retrieve the cruet of water. If the priest is fast, the chalice and paten will be purified by then and I will have to carry the cruet of water in one hand and the chalice (with paten and pall balanced on top!) in the other hand back to the credence table, both at the same time. By then I’m struggling to get the sacramentary open to the correct page and in front of Father’s face before I hear the words “Let us pray…”

Forget it if there is a luna or pyx, if the EMHC hesitates for some reason, or if the Holy Spirit moves Father to do something out of order from the way he usually does it.

I also like to open the sacramentary to the Gloria if there is one and place my fingers under the pages to indicate to the priest the correct page for the opening prayer so he doesn’t have to look for the ribbon and flip the pages himself. Manipulating the pages of the sacramentary like that would be very difficult with gloves.

Gloves would make me very nervous.

-Tim-

One needs to discuss things like this.

I was under the impression that the OP only wanted the servers in gloves when they are going to handle the Chalice, so (in his words) before Mass when they set up they put on the gloves and set everything up on the credence table. Then they remove the gloves and Mass starts. Then the Mass gets to the point of setting up the altar, so the server who is going to handle the Chalice puts on the gloves to do so. Then takes them off afterwards. Then puts the gloves on to remove the Chalice from the altar after communion. Then takes them off. Then puts them on after Mass to remove the Chalice from the credence table to the sacristy.

Seems like a lot going on there. That is if they are not wearing them all the time, then as Tim states, it causes other issues.

And I must repeat a question asked earlier. How do you get the right sizes of gloves so that they fit properly. There is nothing worse for handling something important than an ill fitting pair of gloves.

I am going to refrain from replying any more in the thread until the OP replies to some of what has been raised by myself and others.

 

[mattheus09]

At the former FSSP parish that I had attended years ago (now it is diocesan) the servers wear gloves if they are carrying the processional cross, the candles, or the candle they put on the altar during the sanctus. Before Mass when the MC brought the chalice out and put it on the credence table (this was a high Mass) he wore gloves. One time he needed to touch the chalice during the Mass (I think he had to rearrange it), he used a glove.

 

[Digitonomy]

Oneofthewomen:

The way I read the OP, this is not a dress code issue, it is someone’s attempt to make the Mass more the way they like it.(my emphasis added)

I don’t think these are mutually exclusive. Any change a pastor makes in the way mass is conducted, whether dress code or not, is an attempt to make the mass more to his liking.
Tarpeian Rock:

gloves would be… an inconsistency (servers have gloves, EMHC’s not, to say nothing of those receiving in the hand). Would the deacon then have gloves also, as his hands are not anointed, despite his status as an Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion?

I don’t think inconsistency is much of an issue; servers often have different outfits from EMHCs. And I don’t think the OP has stated whether EMHCs would use gloves or not - I get the feeling that his church probably doesn’t use EMHCs much. I won’t speculate on the specifics of when or who would wear the gloves, as I don’t think it really matters to my point. The OP’s idea may be only half-baked at this point, but I don’t see any justification for reading an across-the-board ban on gloves into the Roman Missal or GIRM.

ByzCath:

This is more than a dress code issue. It is an attempt to force a view of reverence to sacred objects. One that the Church does not hold, I might add. If it was just, we want the servers to wear gloves all the time, that would be a dress code issue, but to say that they must wear gloves when ever they handle the Chalice (I do not understand why the paten and ciborum are not included in this) because in the EF only the ordained handle it during the Mass, is more than dress code only.

It sounds like you agree with me that the wearing of gloves in and of itself is a simple dress code issue, and perfectly permissible. That was my main point. I agree with you that the who, where, why, and how may not be well thought out, and should probably be amended.

ByzCath:

For me, this idea seems to be an attempt to mix the two forms.
…I believe that Pope Benedict is against this sort of thing, that of mixing the two forms.

I don’t agree that this is really a mixing of the forms, despite the intent of the OP. In fact, I suspect he would be in favor of the use of gloves in the EF as well. Do we know for sure that gloves would be impermissible for an EF mass?

ByzCath:

How do you get the right sizes of gloves so that they fit properly. There is nothing worse for handling something important than an ill fitting pair of gloves.

Nowadays you can get gloves made of flexible materials that really do fit like a glove. Ask at your local hardware store or gardening shop.

 

[Spirithound]

As to “girl,” I would say you are on even thiner ice here. It is in the Bishops confidences (powers) to allow female servers in the Ordinary usage.

Thin ice not only liturgically, but grammatically as well! Even if this poster objected to the presence of a female altar server, she would still be a girl, not a “girl”.

 

[TheMc]

Sorry I haven’t kept up with this thread.

Here’s the questions I’ve seen so far. Please let me know if there is any more, and list them like this if possible.

Gloves fitting properly
Specifically when they will be worn (besides when handling the chalice)
I don’t mean to sound snobbish, but honestly don’t worry about these. They are non issues, and they aren’t a problem for us, as we already use gloves. Even if I don’t wear them all through Mass, it is still very easy to put them on at the offertory without people being distracted.

Touching it after Mass
My only thought is: Why wouldn’t you want to wear gloves if you could?

For some background, my parish is like mattheus09’s old parish. Gloves are frequently used for lots of other things, so it’s not like this is coming out of nowhere.

Br. David (and others),

Please list out other questions that I missed, and I’ll do my best to answer them.

 

[TheMc]

I don’t agree that this is really a mixing of the forms, despite the intent of the OP. In fact, I suspect he would be in favor of the use of gloves in the EF as well. Do we know for sure that gloves would be impermissible for an EF mass?

Don’t forget that they do not need them in the EF (except maybe before/after Mass), because they never touch the sacred vessels during Mass.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Here are some questions I would like answered.

And what about the Body of Christ? Does your parish use EM’sHC or is communion distributed by a priest and/or deacon only? If you do you EM’sHC, will they be wearing gloves? If not, why not? Isn’t what they are touching much more precious than an empty chalice?

 

[Brendan]

Does your parish offer the Precious Blood at the Communion Rite?

Every parish offers the Precious Blood at the Communion Rite, even if it is in the species of bread. There is no way to seperate the substances.

The question would be if the parish offers the species of wine

 

[zab]

The altar servers in our parish have been wearing white gloves for the past 10+ years- the reason being is to keep the metal from tarnishing when they process in and out of the church with candle sticks and processional cross. They take them off after they put their items down. Father is very protective of his chalice, now a third class relic since it was first used by Blessed Pope John Paul II. There are only a few people who touch Father’s chalice. No lay person is allowed to drink from his chalice. Those who do handle the chalice (the sacristan, altar server when bringing it to the altar, deacon) are instructed to handle it a certain way, that is, they are supposed to pick it up holding the knob on the stem. The handling instructions is primarily to protect the precious metal from the oils of the hands.

 

[paperwight66]

Hmm - we haven’t used gloves for thirty years that I know of, and probably more, and we haven’t had any problem with the metal tarnishing. The candlesticks are laquered brass, and just rubbed over before the main feast-days, and the chalices are all washed in soapy water after Mass anyway, which would remove any deposits from the hands.

I’m sorry to say it, but your pastor’s excessive care and restrictions on ‘his’ chalice, on the grounds that it was once used by Blessed John Paul, seems to me to be verging on idolatry. If it’s that precious, why not put it in a display case?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Touching it after Mass
My only thought is: Why wouldn’t you want to wear gloves if you could?

I must point out that this is not an answer. Its a question and a flawed one at that. It is like asking the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

Other questions;
Do the servers where gloves to handle the paten and ciborum?
Do the laity receive in the hand and if so do they wear gloves as well?
Does your parish offer the Chalice to the laity? If so do the EMHC’s wear gloves?
Do you use EMHC’s to distribute the Body? If so do they wear gloves?

It seems you are fixated on the Chalice while not caring about the actual Body of Christ.

It seems to me to be a bit scrupulous and superstitious.

 

[zab]

Hmm - we haven’t used gloves for thirty years that I know of, and probably more, and we haven’t had any problem with the metal tarnishing. The candlesticks are laquered brass, and just rubbed over before the main feast-days, and the chalices are all washed in soapy water after Mass anyway, which would remove any deposits from the hands.

I’m sorry to say it, but your pastor’s excessive care and restrictions on ‘his’ chalice, on the grounds that it was once used by Blessed John Paul, seems to me to be verging on idolatry. If it’s that precious, why not put it in a display case?

He would not let anyone other than the deacon and other priests drink from his chalice even if it were not used by Pope John Paul II. And that has nothing to do with idolatry or tarnishing of the metal. I didn’t say anything about using gloves to pick up the chalice.

 

[Lapey]

Recently at my parish, we are having servers who touch the chalice wear gloves. Not for aesthetic reasons (although it looks cool), but out of reverence (before the council, no one but the priest could touch the chalice).

Now… I’m sure many people will ask me about this, since it was my initiative (I am the MC in real life too ). I’m not sure how to explain it well to people besides giving the impression that we are “turning back the clock,” which some people hate to hear.

Could anyone help me formulate a few sentences on how to explain this to people, without saying something like “Because that’s how they did it before VII”?

Note: please stay on topic. If you want to discuss the gloves or anything else, please PM me or start another thread.

Thanks!!

I guess the only questions I would have would be pointed to the rubrics or guidlines where these directives are located? I say “these” because I refer to both the requirements for gloves or the use of a vimpa.

These are both additions or inivations from what I see. This makes it quite dificult to present this to anyone with any authority or validity.

So if I were a server in you parrish, I guess my reponse to any statements you make to explain this would be possibly made to the bishop.

 

[TheMc]

I must point out that this is not an answer. Its a question and a flawed one at that. It is like asking the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

That does seem like a fair comparison. Beating one’s wife is wrong. Touching the chalice is not wrong, but is it bad if you prefer not to?

Other questions;

-]Do/-] Will the servers where gloves to handle the paten and ciborum?
I’m not sure yet.

Do the laity receive in the hand and if so do they wear gloves as well?
I’m guessing you can figure out the answer to this.

Does your parish offer the Chalice to the laity? If so do the EMHC’s wear gloves?
One of the parishes that uses the gloves does, the other doesn’t. And the EMHCs do not use gloves when they are used.

Do you use EMHC’s to distribute the Body? If so do they wear gloves?
No, EMHC’s don’t distribute the precious body, only ordinary ministers.

It seems you are fixated on the Chalice while not caring about the actual Body of Christ.

It seems to me to be a bit scrupulous and superstitious.

Who is saying I don’t care about the actual Body of Christ?

 

[Mens_Integra]

I must point out that this is not an answer. Its a question and a flawed one at that. It is like asking the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

Other questions;
Do the servers where gloves to handle the paten and ciborum?
Do the laity receive in the hand and if so do they wear gloves as well?
Does your parish offer the Chalice to the laity? If so do the EMHC’s wear gloves?
Do you use EMHC’s to distribute the Body? If so do they wear gloves?

It seems you are fixated on the Chalice while not caring about the actual Body of Christ.

It seems to me to be a bit scrupulous and superstitious.

I think that Brother is getting at the paradoxical situation that Catholics are put into today. They look back at the Pre-Vatican II traditions and, like the OP, they see great pains being taken to preserve a respect for the Holy Eucharist and all that surrounds the Sacrament. I cannot help but sympathize with the OP for his efforts to restore some of this respect. The abolition of the custom of the laity refraining from touching sacred vessels, in a sense, had to come about after Tonsure and the Minor Orders were abolished and lay Extraordinary Ministers were allowed. If lay people can even touch the Body of Christ not only in its reception (Communion in the hand) but even in its “Distribution”, then why could they not touch the vessels, as well?

Nevertheless, there existed years ago a different view of sacred things, and this is still reflected in Canon Law: we are not allowed to injure a priest or religious without committing the sin of sacrilege. The Church universal believed that the consecration of anything, person or object, actually changed that thing and made it fit for the Divine Worship (see Josef Pieper’s book In Search of the Sacred), set apart like the Levites and Sacred Objects of the Old Law. Thus, it was only fitting for Sacred Persons to touch and handle Sacred Objects, for they were both similar in their consecration to the sole service of God. So, Tonsured Clerics, having been offered to God, and the higher orders were allowed to touch sacred things, but the laity were not. This is not an offense against the laity, but a recognition of the hierarchy that has always existed within the Church. With the coming of some reforms, however, there has been a lapse in this kind of outlook. Personally, I am sorrowful for this lack of understanding. Certainly the old objections against the old system may contain truth: that such practices lead to clericalism, that it is slavishly restrictive, etc… But when that love and respect for the Holy Eucharist and Sacred Things has been restored, things will not seem so “slavish”…we will rather be freed to view the Holy Things as they ought to be viewed and show God these slight marks of reverence that He deserves in all of our charity.

I think that your original question and defense has much to do with the Minor Orders, MC.

 

[JamestheOlder]

“Touchy” subject, wouldn’t you say?

Where are the rubrics printed, please? And don’t tell me in your parish handbook!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That does seem like a fair comparison. Beating one’s wife is wrong. Touching the chalice is not wrong, but is it bad if you prefer not to?

You totally miss the point of that question. When asked the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?” the only answers are yes or no. It in no way takes into account that maybe you never beat your wife in the first place.

As for your statement that touching the Chalice is “bad” if you prefer not to, that is wrong. Something is either bad or not, preference does not enter into it.

-]Do/-] Will the servers where gloves to handle the paten and ciborum?
I’m not sure yet.

Not sure? How are the paten and ciborum different form the Chalice?

Do the laity receive in the hand and if so do they wear gloves as well?
I’m guessing you can figure out the answer to this.

So it is okay for the laity to handle the Body of Christ but the servers can not even touch the vessels that hold the Body and Blood of Christ? Does not this send the message to the servers that something is wrong with them? That they are some how less than the average lay person?

Does your parish offer the Chalice to the laity? If so do the EMHC’s wear gloves?
One of the parishes that uses the gloves does, the other doesn’t. And the EMHCs do not use gloves when they are used.

Again, EMHC’s are somehow better than the servers?

Who is saying I don’t care about the actual Body of Christ?

It seems you are fixated on the Chalice and by not requiring the gloves for the vessels that hold the Body it seems that if there is not actual care for the Body as there is for the Blood then that it is forgotten over the Chalice.

I just can’t see this as a means of reverence when the laity are allowed to handle the Eucharist and the EMHC’s are not wearing gloves.

I think if you do this you should just say that it is a part of the dress code and leave out any explanation of a sense of “reverence”.

 

[TheMc]

I guess the only questions I would have would be pointed to the rubrics or guidlines where these directives are located? I say “these” because I refer to both the requirements for gloves or the use of a vimpa.

These are both additions or inivations from what I see. This makes it quite dificult to present this to anyone with any authority or validity.

So if I were a server in you parrish, I guess my reponse to any statements you make to explain this would be possibly made to the bishop.

The vimpa is standard for bishops celebrating Mass with mitre & crosier, although it is sometimes not used. Have you looked in the ceremonial of bishops? If not, I’m sure there is some licit way for it to be used. The Pope does, and many bishops do too.

About the gloves, I am in no way encouraging people to disregard the rubrics of the OF, but as my bishop (and the holy father, I believe) has said, when the rubrics are absent or unclear in the OF, one can often assume the EF rubrics, if possible. Hence, the triple doubles with the thurible, placement of the chalice veil and burse on the altar, missal on the right side of the altar at the offertory, sometimes a veiled tabernacle, and other things like this.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

The vimpa is standard for bishops celebrating Mass with mitre & crosier, although it is sometimes not used. Have you looked in the ceremonial of bishops? If not, I’m sure there is some licit way for it to be used. The Pope does, and many bishops do too.

About the gloves, I am in no way encouraging people to disregard the rubrics of the OF, but as my bishop (and the holy father, I believe) has said, when the rubrics are absent or unclear in the OF, one can often assume the EF rubrics, if possible. Hence, the triple doubles with the thurible, placement of the chalice veil and burse on the altar, missal on the right side of the altar at the offertory, sometimes a veiled tabernacle, and other things like this.

A question regarding the bolded part-
if this is the case, why do so many here at CAF (not you specifically, at least that I know of) have such a problem with the laity either holding hands or using the orans position during the Our Father at the OF? It is not specifically addressed in the GIRM, but I often hear that becasue it doesn’t say we can, that means we shouldn’t.

IMHO, in the end, if you, as MC, and your priest decide that the servers should wear gloves, it should be stated that it is because that is what you feel the “dress code” should be, not because it shows more “reverence”.

 

[Lapey]

A question regarding the bolded part-
if this is the case, why do so many here at CAF (not you specifically, at least that I know of) have such a problem with the laity either holding hands or using the orans position during the Our Father at the OF? It is not specifically addressed in the GIRM, but I often hear that becasue it doesn’t say we can, that means we shouldn’t.

IMHO, in the end, if you, as MC, and your priest decide that the servers should wear gloves, it should be stated that it is because that is what you feel the “dress code” should be, not because it shows more “reverence”.