Gnostic Elements in Early Catholicism

[Daniel_Keeran]

Gnosticism and docetism were pervasive in Roman society and contributed to the development of a gnostic form of Christianity that looked similar to orthodox biblical Christianity.

1. The idea of the material physical world being evil was an extension of the biblical idea of the created world being fallen. Gnostic Christianity were strongest in North Africa, especially Egypt, and Syria.
2. The most influential school of thought was centered in Alexandria where Tertullian, Clement of A. (Pantaeus was his teacher who travelled to India), Origen (Ambrose was his patron), Cyprian, and Augustine (former gnosic Manichean) emerged.
3. Asceticism was central to gnostic life in which Marcion founded celibate congregations in Syria. Monasticism, ascetic celibate life, first emerged in the Egyptian desert. As the church developed a hierarchy, its members and priests, were drawn from ascetic orders.
4. Origen was rejected because of gnostic-like ideas that human souls pre-existed and were sent into material bodies as punishment for previous sins. The idea of inherited corruption, stain, and contagion acquired when the soul enters a fleshly body, came out of Alexandrian fathers and had this in common with gnostic thought.
5. The notion of penance as required suffering or punishment for sin in order to achieve sanctification is related to the idea of sainthood, which in gnostic terms is represented by the psychics or the perfected ones.
6. The gnostic Pistis Sophia, with its detailed description of cleansing fire needed to become pure before entering heaven, was written by Valentinus before 150 AD and pre-dates all the church fathers comments on prayers for the dead and purgatory.
7. The gnostic trinity was Father, Mother, and Son, in which God has a female consort. Then we find Athanasius of Alexandria first describing Mary as ever-Virgin, and in gnostic writing Mary is queen of angels. In Catholicism, Mary is the consort or spouse of God, and so for Joseph to have intimate relations with her after Jesus’ birth would be considered adultery.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312617

 

[DavWan]

Try Irenaeus’ Against Heresies to see what the Church thought about this view of Christianity.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Now that your other thread on purgatory being a pagan idea has died you are trying to re-enter it from another angle? What do you hope to achieve here - converts to a new religion?

As I told you before if you want to go back far enough virtually everything in modern belief as well as Christianity has some elements that were also seen in earlier pagan concepts. That just explains our vocabularies and semantic development - not our beliefs.

I suspect that someone could make any claim they wanted - but where is the proof of cause and effect? Would you care to claim that the Christian idea of “grace” is linked to the mythological ideas of the Three Graces..
Three Graces:

In Greek mythology, a Charis (Χάρις) is one of several Charites (Χάριτες; Greek: “Graces”), goddesses of charm, beauty, nature, human creativity and fertility. They ordinarily numbered three, from youngest to oldest: Aglaea (“Beauty”), Euphrosyne (“Mirth”), and Thalia (“Good Cheer”). In Roman mythology they were known as the Gratiae, the “Graces.”

Catholics put down the Gnostic heresies. So what’s your point?

James

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Try Irenaeus’ Against Heresies to see what the Church thought about this view of Christianity.

Certainly most of the ECF’s opposed the blatant elements of gnosticism such as rejection of the Old Testament, the idea of the Creator God being an evil Demiurge, the idea that Jesus did not have a physical body, etc. Yet at the same time the ideas and beliefs related to gnostic thought were so pervasive in Roman society that many of these ideas found their way into the thinking of the ECF’s as I have outlined.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312617

I looked briefly at the Psychotheosophy thread. Thanks very much. I would like to proceed with this one then compare later to see if similar conclusions were drawn.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Certainly most of the ECF’s opposed the blatant elements of gnosticism such as rejection of the Old Testament, the idea of the Creator God being an evil Demiurge, the idea that Jesus did not have a physical body, etc. Yet at the same time the ideas and beliefs related to gnostic thought were so pervasive in Roman society that many of these ideas found their way into the thinking of the ECF’s as I have outlined.

Is that so surprising that some ideas are “Christianized”? For goodness sake we stole their pagan alphabets and their languages - not to mention their philosophies as well (legos) lol…

James

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Now that your other thread on purgatory being a pagan idea has died you are trying to re-enter it from another angle? What do you hope to achieve here - converts to a new religion?

As I told you before if you want to go back far enough virtually everything in modern belief as well as Christianity has some elements that were also seen in earlier pagan concepts. That just explains our vocabularies and semantic development - not our beliefs.

I suspect that someone could make any claim they wanted - but where is the proof of cause and effect? Would you care to claim that the Christian idea of “grace” is linked to the mythological ideas of the Three Graces..

Catholics put down the Gnostic heresies. So what’s your point?

James

I am wanting to broaden the idea of gnostic influence beyond simply purgatory. If an idea is found in gnostic thought but not in scripture, then emerges in the ECF’s, it is reasonable to conclude a gnostic rather than a biblical source for the idea found in the ECF’s.

On the other hand, if an idea is found in gnostic thought, biblical thought, and also in the ECF’s, it is reasonable to conclude that a truth was providentially transmitted through BOTH gnostic and biblical sources.

 

[LionHeart777]

Hi Daniel,

your thesis only seems to work to me if Sola Scriptura is correct…you start with that assumption. If you are incorrect about this than it appears that your thesis can’t hold strong or at least not as strong.

I have a ? for you…what became of Paul, Peter, and John?

 

[LionHeart777]

also, wouldn’t 2 Maccabees predate the gnostic work you listed above?

I have heard too that the Orthodox Jews offer prayers for the dead.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

also, wouldn’t 2 Maccabees predate the gnostic work you listed above?

I have heard too that the Orthodox Jews offer prayers for the dead.

Gnosticism had influenced Judaism by the time of 2 Maccabees. But this solitary verse in 2 Maccabees has other problems, not the least of which is that praying for the dead is not found anywhere in the law and prophets of Israel.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Hi Daniel,

your thesis only seems to work to me if Sola Scriptura is correct…you start with that assumption. If you are incorrect about this than it appears that your thesis can’t hold strong or at least not as strong.

I have a ? for you…what became of Paul, Peter, and John?

If any distinction can be made between the deposit of faith as inspired and the ECF’s as not inspired, then we can look at the gnostic ideas not found in the deposit of faith (DOF) and those that are found in the ECF’s. A reasonable conclusion then is that gnostic ideas influenced the ECF’s.

Paul, Peter, and John died and left their writings with us as they intended.

2 Timothy 4:13
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.

2 Peter 1:15
And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things

 

[Insomniac]

Is this influence a bad thing?

 

[Truthstalker]

Is this influence a bad thing?

A key question. Allow me to join the discussion.

The influence is really bad if it can be proved that the Catholic Church has adopted something gnostic that is clearly and explicitly against the apostolic deposit. If it has, its claim to possess teaching authority is severely impeached.

The OP has launched oblique attacks against Mariolatry and the embracing of celibacy, among other things. For example, (and not to derail the thread)it has crossed my mind more than once that the mandate on priestly celibacy is due to gnostic influences more than it is to the clear command of the apostles that bishops and elders have the norm of being married with children, and the example of the apostles who went around with their wives. While it is true that both Jesus and Paul were single, the norm seems to be marriage. Now the practice of the Catholic Church seems to line up more with gnostic tendencies here than with the Biblical mandate, which should be of concern.

There are probably areas where gnostic practice and Christianity are wholly in harmony in practice, but from radically different sources. Similarly there are areas where they should be radically different in practice due to the same reason.

This thread, IMHO, is too broad. Any of the points in the OP could be, and perhaps has been, explored on CAF separately. I would like to consider looking instead at determining if there is something that was actually brought into official Church teaching that can be demonstrated as solely gnostic in origin, rather than either syncretistic or solely from the deposit of faith. While they did fight gnosticism way back when, it is possible there are still gnostic influences that the Church needs to get rid of to be the pure Bride of Christ she is called to be. Perhaps in doctrine, perhaps in discipline, perhaps in lay practice. That, I think, is worth considering.

 

[LionHeart777]

I have a ? for you…what became of Paul, Peter, and John?

That was a trap (sorry) but, my point is that most Christians will accept that Paul and Peter were martyred at Rome, while John was exiled to Patmos…but none of that is in Scripture.

what would be the evidence for gnosticism influincing Judaism?

do you believe that 2 Maccabees is Canonical?

if not why?

 

[LionHeart777]

I see Catholic and Orthodox teaching on marriage and priests lining up w/ 1 Corinthians 7, personally…besisdes there are married priests in communion w/ the Roman Bishop if I’m not mistaken…

• Don’t rely on me for Catholic teaching as I’m learning and am not oficially Catholic (nor enrolled in RCIA yet) btw

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

That was a trap (sorry) but, my point is that most Christians will accept that Paul and Peter were martyred at Rome, while John was exiled to Patmos…but none of that is in Scripture.

what would be the evidence for gnosticism influincing Judaism?

do you believe that 2 Maccabees is Canonical?

if not why?

The Jewish Therapeutae Community in Egypt near Alexandria was an ascetic community that may have been influenced by gnosticism in the region.

The writer of 2 Maccabees says his writing is not reliable:
“So these things being done with relation to Nicanor and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but IF NOT SO PERFECTLY, it must be pardoned me.” 2 Maccabees 15:38,39

Prayers for the dead, especially those who died in mortal sin of idolatry, were previously unknown in Judaism. Prayers for the dead does however conform with gnostic ideas of purification needed in the afterlife.

Philo described the Therapeutae in the beginning of the 1st century CE in De vita contemplativa (“On the contemplative life”), written ca. 10 CE.

Jewish sect of ascetics in the vicinity of Alexandria, Egypt, during the 1st century ad. severe in discipline and mode of life, both men and women, devoted their time to prayer and study. They prayed twice every day, at dawn and at evening, the interval between being spent entirely on spiritual exercise. They read the Holy Scriptures, from which they sought wisdom by treating them as ALLEGORICAL, believing that the words of the literal text were symbols of something hidden. Attendance to bodily needs, such as food, was entirely relegated to the hours of darkness. - ENCYCL. BRITANNICA

The similarities between the Therapeutae and Buddhist monasticism, a tradition earlier by several centuries, combined with Indian evidence of Buddhist missionary activity to the Mediterranean around 250 BCE (the Edicts of Ashoka), have been pointed out. The Therapeutae (Theravada “Buddhists”) would have been the descendants of Ashoka’s emissaries to the West. - Therapeutae in wickipedia

 

[Ghosty]

Gnosticism had influenced Judaism by the time of 2 Maccabees. But this solitary verse in 2 Maccabees has other problems, not the least of which is that praying for the dead is not found anywhere in the law and prophets of Israel.

There’s no evidence of Gnosticism existing in the second century B.C., when the events of II Maccabees occurred and were written down. You seem to really be grasping at straws here.

Peace and God bless!

 

[mlchance]

Yet another thread whose OP is predicated entirely on a post hoc fallacy.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

There’s no evidence of Gnosticism existing in the second century B.C., when the events of II Maccabees occurred and were written down. You seem to really be grasping at straws here.

Peace and God bless!

Gnosticsm/Docetism began at least from the time of Pythagoras in the 6th century BC. Pythagoras got his ideas from the East and began an ascetic community in Crotone and Taranto in southern Italy, of celibate vegetarians with the aim being the contemplative life. Dualistic thought then came into Roman society who loved all things Greek. Early Catholicism developed out of this environment, with I think no intent to deceive but simply a natural process combining popular beliefs and values with apostolic Christianity and the imperialization of the church resulting in what we see today as the Roman Catholic Church. The Hellenization, with gnostic influences, of Judaism occurred as well before the writing of 2 Maccabees.