Gnostic writings

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Yeah, a New Ageish blending of many belief systems, from what I have read today.
 
LongJourney said:
Yeah, a New Ageish blending of many belief systems, from what I have read today.
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If you want to research more, I would suggest reading Blavatsky’s ISIS UNVEILED (which very few read today) and the MASSIVE multi-volume THE SECRET HISTORY by her also.
The secind is also one of those books not widely read today yet it is indispensable for those wanting to understand the whole Theosophy and even New Age movements to day.

I myself have only skimmed through these weighty tomes ( I don’t have THAT hard of a behind-or the patience) but basically they give you the whole story of the human race and the “True” narrative behind it (which includes Atlantis, Swamis, various anthrophomorphic pre-human races, astrology, reincarnation, and so forth).

Another good book would be THE SECRET TEACHINGS OF ALL AGES by Manly Hall.

Still in print after 70 plus years.

I know of these since I used to be of the New Age/Panentheitic persuasion. Thankfully, I outgrew it.
Christ is my only persuasion now.
I just mentioned these books just in case you want to research the fascinating story behind the “mishmash.” :cool:
 
I will bookmark those things for future research. Right now I am preparing to re-enter the real world of work after taking several years off to research Mormonism, so I need to get to professional reading. But that tickles the imagination better than any fiction. 😃
 
LongJourney said:
Yeah, a New Ageish blending of many belief systems, from what I have read today.
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The two gnostic sects I’d suggest looking into are the Manicheans, originating in modern Persia as a synthesis between Gnostic-Christianity and Zoroastrianism, it eventually expanded to try to make itself syncretic with every religion it met. At its peak it was spreak across the Mediterranean, the Middle East, India, and well into China. St. Augustine is probably the best known member of the sect (rather, former member), other than its prophet Mani.

The other sect to look at are the Sethians who seem to have left the most documentation. They claim to predate Christianity following secret knowledge that was handed down from Seth, son of Adam. They are probably best known for the Gospel of Judas, who I seem to recall they claimed was a Sethian (not sure on that), although academically that particular book isn’t of much interest, as it only reiterates what was already known (which is how National Geographic was able to get the book instead of a consortum of Universities).
 
The other sect to look at are the Sethians who seem to have left the most documentation. They claim to predate Christianity following secret knowledge that was handed down from Seth, son of Adam.
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Yeah, my ex had experimented with that before I met him.
 
Nine_Two said:
Alexandrian Gnostics? That’s not a sect name I’m familiar with.

At any rate I hasten to point out that when I said “orthodox” I meant the Christianity that became mainstream, and not a specific church existing today (although my argument there would be obvious). I disagree that Christianity became the religion of the Empire for political reasons, it was a minority throughout Constantine’s reign and he already had a ready built network through pagans. Julian seems to have had no trouble governing and seems to have been one of the last competant emperors.

Regarding teaching the orthodox had nothing on the Ariens in “aggression” and for most of the period you’re talking about the Ariens held sway.

If anything killed the Gnostics it was the common belief that having children was the ultimate sin. I’m only aware of three sects which did not hold this teaching, two survive to this day (Mandians and Yezidi’s), the third being Manicheans, who as I previously stated survived into the 16th century.
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I believe the “Secret Book of Mark”…or “Secret Gospel of Mark” was written by Alexandrian Gnostics…who claimed they were taught by Mark, author of the synoptic gospel.
 
Sufjon it was subtle humor. The article linked makes the simple case how she is billed more accurately, “not as an expert on Gnosticism or Coptic Christianity but as what she is: a lady novelist. Her oeuvre is that of fiction – in fact, historical romance.”
 
SedesDomi said:
Panentheism is completely consistent with Christianity.
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Yes, it is, SedesDomi.
I didn’t mention this, though, but I also leaned Pagan (I was briefly into the Egyptian Pantheon of Gods). I used to “believe” that there was ONE God that permeated the Universe but also stood outside of it. AND that there may have been other “Gods” as well. I read a lot of Zachariah Sitchen’s books (who considers himself a Christian, ironically enough) and also agreeed with the whole “ancient god-like astronauts who created us” theory at one time in my “journey.” I went through a lot of stuff before I found the truth in our Savior Jesus Christ.
Panentheism can be used to legitimize and reinforce a LOT of ideologies and religions, not JUST Christianity.
But you are right in that sense that it is not incompatible with Christianity. :cool:
 
CathFaith1 said:
Sufjon it was subtle humor. The article linked makes the simple case how she is billed more accurately, “not as an expert on Gnosticism or Coptic Christianity but as what she is: a lady novelist. Her oeuvre is that of fiction – in fact, historical romance.”
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I prefer to think of Ole Elaine as a provocative and learned scholar who unfortunately interprets the Gnostic Gospels through the prism of her own Feminist/Socio-Political leanings, thereby giving “ammunition” to those would want to “repopularize” Gnosticism as an alternative to Christianity and eventually supplant it.
Of course that would be followed by a healthy dose of New Age/Wiccan/Our Mother Goddess Gaia worship added to the “mix” soon after. 😦
 
Panentheism can be used to legitimize and reinforce a LOT of ideologies and religions, not JUST Christianity. But you are right in that sense that it is not incompatible with Christianity.
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It is on the outer fringes. There is a fuzzy line between that and “We are obligated to respect creation, as a gift from the Creator.” Interesting concept, and not worth fighting. Much better in its results than “We have the right to do whatever we want with the earth, because it is going to blow up anyway.” :eek:
 
Publisher said:
I believe the “Secret Book of Mark”…or “Secret Gospel of Mark” was written by Alexandrian Gnostics…who claimed they were taught by Mark, author of the synoptic gospel.
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The Secret Gospel of Mark, according to the information I have here (from The Other Bible edited by Willis Barnstone, with this particular part written by Ron Cameron), was an extended version of the Gospel of Mark which included extra stories not found in the version of Mark now known, including Christ raising Lazarus from the dead. St. Clement of Alexandria wrote on the gospel (and is the only evidence we have of it), and does not seem to have thought it was gnostic, though he notes the Caroicratians, a gnostic sect, used a version which included some differences. However they did not write the original Secret Gospel, as you say. Nor is there any evidence they believed Carpocrates was a disciple of St. Mark.
 
LongJourney said:
It is on the outer fringes. There is a fuzzy line between that and “We are obligated to respect creation, as a gift from the Creator.” Interesting concept, and not worth fighting. Much better in its results than “We have the right to do whatever we want with the earth, because it is going to blow up anyway.” :eek:
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Actulaly, some Protestant preachers preach that. The “Stewards of the Earth” line of thinking taken one step further.👍
 
There is, of course, some controversy surrounding Clement’s letter and the Secret Gospel of Mark:
Scholars trying to determine whether or not Clement’s letter describing the Secret Gospel of Mark is a modern forgery have faced a major obstacle: the lone manuscript containing the letter seems to have vanished. Thus, forensic tests that could conclusively demonstrate when the manuscript was copied are currently out of the question.
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Charles Hedrick became involved in the search for the manuscript around 1990, and he summarized what he was able to ascertain about its fate in an article published a decade later:
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In this article, Hedrick reports:
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  • In 1977, Archimandrite (an honorary title for a priest in the hierarchy of the Greek Orthodox church) Melito tranfered the 1646 Voss edition of the letters of Ignatius (still containing the letter of Clement) from the monastery at Mar Saba to the Patriarchate Library in Jerusalem.
  • Later in 1977, Father Kallistos Dourvas (the Patriarchate librarian at the time) removed the Clement manuscript from the Voss book to photograph it. However, he did not separate the Clement manuscript from the Voss book. He insists that the two were kept together at least until the end of his tenure as librarian in 1990.
  • In 1980, Professor Thomas Talley of General Theological Seminary in New York was informed about the transfer by both Melito (the deliverer) and Kallistos (the receiver). However, he was told the manuscript was not available for viewing.
  • In 1990, Charles Hedrick and Nikolaos Olympiou, Professor of Old Testament at the University of Athens, visited the monastery at Mar Saba and were told the same thing Talley had been: the manuscript had been moved to the Patriarchate library.
  • In 1992, Hedrick and Olympiou visited the Patriarchate Library and were told that the manuscript could not be located.
  • In December 1998 and June 2000, Olympiou viewed the 1646 Voss edition of the letters of Ignatius, but the letter of Clement was no longer in the book.
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The controversial letter attributed to Clement definitely did exist, and it was once located where Smith said it was.
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But there remain many unanswered questions? Did Smith write the write the letter on the blank pages in the Voss book himself? Who separated the Voss book from the Clement manuscript? Why did that person do so?
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And, most importantly, WHERE IS THE CLEMENT MANUSCRIPT NOW?!
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CathFaith1 said:
Sufjon it was subtle humor. The article linked makes the simple case how she is billed more accurately, “not as an expert on Gnosticism or Coptic Christianity but as what she is: a lady novelist. Her oeuvre is that of fiction – in fact, historical romance.”
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Hi CathFaith1: I see - sorry I didn’t catch that. Thanks for the clarification, and for the humor too 🙂 . Usually I’m good at catching a joke, but sometimes I miss. Actually I was making reference to her published commentaries on the relatively recent translations of the gnostic works. I liked them because they were devoid of any conclusions or suggestions as to the veracity of the writings. I do know that she does public speaking and I’m not sure about any fiction she might write. I’m not familiar with any of that. I have mostly been interested in her academic work and I do think that will contribute to the continuing evolution of our understanding of the origins of our beliefs. Whether that changes anyone’s conclusions, of course I can’t say. I’m mostly interested in what conclusions I myself can draw over the long term. I have to admit that this has been a ponderous task for me.
 
Sufjon said:
I have mostly been interested in her academic work and I do think that will contribute to the continuing evolution of our understanding of the origins of our beliefs.
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I don’t see her contributing much to my own beliefs (or that of the orthodox Catholic faith). I suppose those with unorthodox systems of religious thought may find her thought provoking? (shrugs)
 
I would be very cautious in evaluating Gnostic writings. However, I think hidden in some of them are some nuggets of wisdom which did come from Jesus. They are very inconsistent, which is common, given the nature of Gnosticism. The truths, and a few thought-provoking statements is what I look for. This is what I did in sorting through the BoM, evaluating it against probable source documents. The same rule holds up for Gnostic writings. Check them against the Bible.
 
LongJourney said:
I would be very cautious in evaluating Gnostic writings. However, I think hidden in some of them are some nuggets of wisdom which did come from Jesus. They are very inconsistent, which is common, given the nature of Gnosticism. The truths, and a few thought-provoking statements is what I look for. This is what I did in sorting through the BoM, evaluating it against probable source documents. The same rule holds up for Gnostic writings. Check them against the Bible.
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I would say a “reliable” source for authentic Jesus quotes would be The Gospel of Thomas. It is considered the “oldest” of the “Gnostic” Gospels (going back at least BEFORE the standard 4 Gospels, some say) and it contains a more “human” picture of the Messiah than one finds in other Gnostic accounts (where He tends to be somewhat “unlikable,” shall we say?) It is also without the elaborate, convoluted, mystical mumbo-jumbo that characterizes some later Gnostic texts (think of the Gospel of Phillip, for instance). It is pretty straightforward and to the point. It is also pretty short, and contains some memorable lines ("If you do not bring forth what is within you…, etc)

Not saying it is on the same level as our Gospels, but if one wants “authentic” nuggets of wisdom which MAY have actually come from Jesus, Thomas is the earliest and therefore the “closest” to what one may be seeking.

Personally, I think it a little too “Buddhistic” for my taste, but that’s just me. :o
 
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