Gnostic writings

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I don’t see her contributing much to my own beliefs (or that of the orthodox Catholic faith). I suppose those with unorthodox systems of religious thought may find her thought provoking? (shrugs)
Hi CathFaith1: Yep, I think you’re right. I can’t argue that there would be those who wouldn’t find it thought provoking, although I’m equally certain that there will be many who do find it interesting. Considered against the backdrop of older world religions, they are very interesting to someone like me, but I don’t have the burden of conviction to defend, so that does make me different. Not that it’s wrong to have a particular conviction, but personally I don’t. That doesn’t mean I’m not looking though. Talking to you and others on this forum is another great aid to my search and I’m very happy that you’re sharing your thoughts and time with me. I might even call that a blessing 🙂
 
I would say a “reliable” source for authentic Jesus quotes would be The Gospel of Thomas.

Personally, I think it a little too “Buddhistic” for my taste, but that’s just me. :o
I don’t remember reading about the Buddha in that Gospel.
 
For almost 1900 years we had a very…skewed understanding of Christian history…now we know Christianity was much more diverse in it’s expressions in those first centuries than it is today even with it’s various denominational idiosyncrasies.
Are you saying that back then they were much more diverse than say the 33,000+ Protestant denominations that exist today? What proof do you have? That is like saying every Christian in the Early Church had his own personal Church and was his own personal church leader with his own personal deposit of faith.
I know many of those in “apostolic” traditions today yell “REVISIONIST HISTORY” when such ideas are put forth…to me…this so called “revisionist history” is much more credible than the clean, mystical, pious history put forth by the conservative camp of today.
🤷 Truth > such ideas
 
OOOHH I know. Thomas and Mary Magdalene probably have the strongest correlations with NT writings. 😛
 
I don’t remember reading about the Buddha in that Gospel.
I meant in the almost Pantheistic flavor of some of the sayings of Jesus. “turn over a rock and you will find me there,” “the Kingdom is spread out among you only you do not know it,” etc.

Let me put it this way. It has an “Eastern” flavor to it.

Many folks who belive the tales that Jesus went to India before he began his ministry have pointed to passages like these as “evidence.”
I personally don’t believe this—just telling what I’ve read and heard. :o
 
I am pointing this out only because no one else has but Gnosticism did not start out as a Christian sect. It did develop about the same time as Christianity did but it was originally a pagan cult that later adopted and warped Jewish and Christian Idealogy.

It is theorized that Simon Magus (see book of Acts) was a gnostic and some even claim that he might have started the cult, yet there really isn’t any historical “proof” this was the case. But what I have seen is that the “scholors” that are trying to make gnosticism equal to early Christianity make a whole lot of assertions, assumptions, and stretches to get to their points. There is no solid evidence to believe that gnostic thought was ever on par with Christianity at any point in the early history of the church or that it ever was a threat to become the “orthodox” belief system of the church.
 
I am pointing this out only because no one else has but Gnosticism did not start out as a Christian sect. It did develop about the same time as Christianity did but it was originally a pagan cult that later adopted and warped Jewish and Christian Idealogy.

It is theorized that Simon Magus (see book of Acts) was a gnostic and some even claim that he might have started the cult, yet there really isn’t any historical “proof” this was the case. But what I have seen is that the “scholors” that are trying to make gnosticism equal to early Christianity make a whole lot of assertions, assumptions, and stretches to get to their points. There is no solid evidence to believe that gnostic thought was ever on par with Christianity at any point in the early history of the church or that it ever was a threat to become the “orthodox” belief system of the church.
Hi ERose: I am a proponent of gathering information and presenting it. There has been a lot of scholarly work done on gnostic texts that simply state what they say and present historical background - period… I’m sure there have been other writers on the same subject who have an agenda, as you’ve noted, but not all of them. I always recommend checking the credentials of the person being published. I think it’s incumbent on anyone who wants to explore such things in any serious way to read as much available material as possible. From there, one can draw their own conclusions. For many, it will always be a matter of faith, or defending faith if you have one to defend. I am convinced that there is some truth in all of the gospels, gnostic or otherwise. As for stretching to get to a point, my mind sees that happening everywhere, whether it’s mainstream religion or alternative theories. Somewhere therein lies the truth, but I can’t say what that is. Personally I tend to lend more credibility to sources that have no stake in the conclusions, and then apply the best reasoning I can. I also feel that if one does have a stake or vested interest in the conclusions, this is a wonderful thing, but I wonder why such people would trouble their minds at all with exploration into other areas. In other words, if I thought I had found “The Rock” I probably wouldn’t venture off of it in any regard. Actually, that’s exactly what I’m working toward in my own search, but first I have to find it. 🙂
 
Are you saying that back then they were much more diverse than say the 33,000+ Protestant denominations that exist today? What proof do you have? That is like saying every Christian in the Early Church had his own personal Church and was his own personal church leader with his own personal deposit of faith.
**
Yes they were MORE diverse in many respects. Those first believers were Jews…who continued to worship as Jews…at this time in Judaism there were competing sects claiming to be…or wanting to be the “authorative” version and expression of Judaisim. Pharisees, Sadduceees, Essenes…to name a few we are familiar with…into this “mileu” came followers of Jesus of Nazareth…claiming to be “authentic Israel” rightful legacy…They were distinctively Jewish…and continued to preach circumcision…until Paul the “Christian movement” stayed a “Jewish phenomanon” and not terribly significant.

Once Paul’s vision of his type of Christianity took hold…Christianity began a population exposion. One of the things that prohibbited the “God fearers”, Gentile believers in the God of Israel, from becoming FULL JEWS…was the rite of circumcision…a painful and dangerous procedure for adult men…when in Christianity one also got the “God of Israel” and NO CIRCUMCISION…once the Fall of Jerusalem the competition for “authenitic Judaism” was between the Pharisee Rabbinic Movement and the followers of Jesus of Nazareth.

As more and more Gentile entered the Church…the church in isolated locations “drifted” far from it’s Jewish roots…out of this time came the Synoptic gospels…I’m of the opinion that the gospels were written by “God-fearer” converts who didn’t fully understand the Hebrew scriptures…which is why we find so many miquotes in the gospels from the prophets…Christianity had become more Gentile than Jewish.

Some isolated groups had very “similar” beleifs…but different still. Early Christianity was more about Jesus words and how to live in this world than it was about rites and rituals that needed to be performed…Christianity ‘re-emerged’ in the 2nd century now established in various “schools” of thought…“proto-orthodox/catholic”…Arian…Gnostic…Ebionite…Manichee was quite sucessful in Asia Minor…in some places the Manichess we the ONLY version of Christianity there was…and while some of the groups which existed were quite small…but their belief are addressed in writing such as “Gospel of Peter”…“Gospel of Thomas”…even the “Gospel of John”…which was disputed for centuries …theology reflected it’s theology in it’s various “Johaninne communities”…and John’s gospel was used by some “orthodox” as well as “gnostic” groups.

Many of these groups had similar theology…but different enough that “inter-communion” between some of them could not take place…which we see finally defined in later years between some of the Orthodox groups…Coptic…Armenian…Ethiopic to name a few.

The “First Christians” we all about what Jesus taught and made their communities into reflections of his teachings…by the second century the focus had shifted from “what Jesus taught” but “who Jesus was”. It was during the 2nd century that some of the more “vocal” and prominent groups began to unify under recognized “bishops” and “schools of thought”… who eventually joined these congregations together under an hierarchal form of government and began it’s further definitions of fine parts of “theology”…the “heretical” teachings were defined and more so called “orthodox” belief took prominence…

This is a “shoestring” history on my part…but there are volumes and volumes of critical study on the Early Christian Church’s history published in the last few decades.

The struggle between the Pauline congregations and theology between the leadership of the Jerusalem church and James is one such view of diversity…even though the writer of Acts seeks to gloss over and give us “pious history” of those first decades.**

🤷 Truth > such ideas
 
Hi All: Since we’re on the subject, here’s an interesting talk on the Gospel of Thomas. Touches on the idea of studying the letters of the gospels and missing the point. Posting for your consideration, and of course as usual, to provoke thought, not emotions 🙂 .

youtube.com/watch?v=jtdmbki04PQ&feature=related

Respectfully,
Sufjon.
 
I bookmarked it. His English is hard to understand. I will have to concentrate to understand, and see if I agree or disagree. I sampled through a few other talks on it, some were almost offensive.
 
I am pointing this out only because no one else has but Gnosticism did not start out as a Christian sect. It did develop about the same time as Christianity did but it was originally a pagan cult that later adopted and warped Jewish and Christian Idealogy.

It is theorized that Simon Magus (see book of Acts) was a gnostic and some even claim that he might have started the cult, yet there really isn’t any historical “proof” this was the case. But what I have seen is that the “scholors” that are trying to make gnosticism equal to early Christianity make a whole lot of assertions, assumptions, and stretches to get to their points. There is no solid evidence to believe that gnostic thought was ever on par with Christianity at any point in the early history of the church or that it ever was a threat to become the “orthodox” belief system of the church.
There are a number of theories as to its origins, but you’re right none indicate they came directly from Christ. There is significant evidence that Jewish Gnosticism arose first, and Christian gnosticism grew out of that.
 
Right now I am beginning to read “The Gospel according to the Hebrews”, supposedly closely related to Gospel of Matthew. I downloaded a pdf copy of the book by Edward Byron Nickolson in public domain. I think I will stick to those early Christian writings that narrowly missed the Canonical decision, rather than those that are obviously weird. My study of Mormonism just about exhausted my tolerance for the weird. :rolleyes:
 
Some of the most influential ones are the weird ones though - The Hypostasis of the Archons, for example.
 
Nothing wrong with reading weird stuff, just don’t want to OD on it. 😃
 
Nothing wrong with reading weird stuff, just don’t want to OD on it. 😃
Apocryphal writings - Jewish and Christian - are actually one of my areas of interest.
The outright Gnostic work that I think I probably ‘like’ the most - because of its complexity and downright incomprehensibility :cool: - must be the Books of Jeu (Ieou). 😃
 
I bookmarked it. His English is hard to understand. I will have to concentrate to understand, and see if I agree or disagree. I sampled through a few other talks on it, some were almost offensive.
Sorry LingJourney - I didn’t think of that. I am used to accents from India, and I forget that they are sometimes hard for Americans to understand. He may sound offensive to you, but I think that’s a cultural thing. I can assure you that’s far from the way he is. I don’t know him personally, but I know a lot of people who talk just like him and have the same mannerisms. I bet if you went out for an ice cream with him, you’d end up good friends 🙂

Anyway, thanks for checking it out, and sorry you couldn’t make out what he was saying.
 
The outright Gnostic work that I think I probably ‘like’ the most - because of its complexity and downright incomprehensibility…
I’ve heard it claimed much of Gnostic thought could be understood as Buddhism with Christian names.
 
Sorry LingJourney - I didn’t think of that. I am used to accents from India, and I forget that they are sometimes hard for Americans to understand.
I will get back to it later. There are so many things on this thread to read and absorb. 🍿
 
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