Gnostics and their gospels

[ChristianSurfer]

I looked around and couldn’t find the thread that addresses this question:

Now this is not a topic debating the credibility of this sect or their texts, I believe they are wolfs in sheep’s clothing.

I was wondering if anybody could help me find a scholarly source that I could use in my paper. I have a professor in my humanities course who used to be a pastor of a Lutheran church and entertains the idea that the gnostic gospels may be true and also points out some of the references from the Da Vinci Code as if they may be true even though its a fiction novel. He gave use the option to chose our topic and I am going to write about why the gnostic texts were so heretical and why they were burned. I was wondering if anyone has any scholarly sources so I can disprove his notions and have him stop teaching them in front of the class as if they may be “true.”

I already found some great web sites like this one: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6977&CFID=25469855&CFTOKEN=53776486

but this is not a source I can use for a University level class

note: this professor has a “hedonism ethics” so to say background so proving anything to be wrong/evil will be difficult.

Thanks in advance.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I have a professor in my humanities course who used to be a pastor of a Lutheran church and entertains the idea that the gnostic gospels may be true

You have a fundamental problem here. The Church does not care if a writing is true, only if it is divinely inspired.

The Church did not exclude (for example) the Gospel of Thomas in the Canon of Scripture because it was factually or theologically incorrect. She excluded it because She determined that it was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. The same could be said for many early writings which contained no overt factual or theological errors (such as the Shepherd of Hermas, or the First Epistle of Clement).

Your former-pastor instructor respects truth. OK, fine - Euclid (a pagan) wrote the truth (about geometry) in his Elements (300 years before Christ). It was true, but is it Scripture? Of course not.

95% of the Gnostic writings are true. We can debate the other 5% for a long time. Maybe we will decide the other 5% is also true. But that doesn’t make it Scripture.

 

[abucs]

Sorry, i haven’t got any sources for you.

Perhaps you could study the existance of the Gnostic group before Christianity and then compare how their pre-Christian thoughts then fed into their “Christian” writings.

Perhaps also you could focus on the geographic location of the Gnostics and the lack of a credible claimed connection to Jewish culture and specifics of the inner circle of Jesus followers in Palestine. That is, who were the people claiming a direct connection with the Apostles and is that credible.

 

[ChristianSurfer]

You have a fundamental problem here. The Church does not care if a writing is true, only if it is divinely inspired.

The Church did not exclude (for example) the Gospel of Thomas in the Canon of Scripture because it was factually or theologically incorrect. She excluded it because She determined that it was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. The same could be said for many early writings which contained no overt factual or theological errors (such as the Shepherd of Hermas, or the First Epistle of Clement).

Very true I believe this as a Catholic and I have learned from the second part. Sorry that I didn’t clarify it earlier but does majority of Christians have the same view, i feel that the paper will have more Credible appeal if the majority Christians view this, or since it was the early church that all Christians should believe this?

Your former-pastor instructor respects truth. OK, fine - Euclid (a pagan) wrote the truth (about geometry) in his Elements (300 years before Christ). It was true, but is it Scripture? Of course not.

95% of the Gnostic writings are true. We can debate the other 5% for a long time. Maybe we will decide the other 5% is also true. But that doesn’t make it Scripture.

I guess this part is the verifiable part I can write about in a paper

Thanks David for your response it raises good points!

 

[ChristianSurfer]

Sorry, i haven’t got any sources for you.

Perhaps you could study the existance of the Gnostic group before Christianity and then compare how their pre-Christian thoughts then fed into their “Christian” writings.

Perhaps also you could focus on the geographic location of the Gnostics and the lack of a credible claimed connection to Jewish culture and specifics of the inner circle of Jesus followers in Palestine. That is, who were the people claiming a direct connection with the Apostles and is that credible.

yeah i read a little about their pre-Christian thoughts and they have a inverted hermeneutic view of the genesis story and complete flop their ideals and actually praise the snake in the adam & eve story (hopefully a reputable source) and they view the physical world as evil and they try not to have marriage so they don’t entrap another person in it. ( pretty serious stuff)

thats actually a really good point of the Gnostics location where would i find information about the location and connection of the canonized gospels? ( in providing evidence of this i can counter-point the Gnostic claims.)

Even without sources what you provided will give me a good point-counter point on refuting the Gnostics.

Thanks!

 

[thistle]

I looked around and couldn’t find the thread that addresses this question:

Now this is not a topic debating the credibility of this sect or their texts, I believe they are wolfs in sheep’s clothing.

I was wondering if anybody could help me find a scholarly source that I could use in my paper. I have a professor in my humanities course who used to be a pastor of a Lutheran church and entertains the idea that the gnostic gospels may be true and also points out some of the references from the Da Vinci Code as if they may be true even though its a fiction novel. He gave use the option to chose our topic and I am going to write about why the gnostic texts were so heretical and why they were burned. I was wondering if anyone has any scholarly sources so I can disprove his notions and have him stop teaching them in front of the class as if they may be “true.”

I already found some great web sites like this one: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6977&CFID=25469855&CFTOKEN=53776486

but this is not a source I can use for a University level class

note: this professor has a “hedonism ethics” so to say background so proving anything to be wrong/evil will be difficult.

Thanks in advance.

ntcanon.org/

 

[inocente]

See if you can find The Essential Gnostic Gospels (Alan Jacobs, various editions inc. ISBN-978-1842932032, 2006).

It only contains a selection of the texts, and they are paraphrased without chapter and verse, but you will see many ideas that you and your prof won’t recognize, e.g. from The Sophia of Jesus Christ

… [Jesus:] When what I’ve stated was revealed, The Self Originator, the Father, created twelve Aeons as spheres for His twelve angels. All these were perfect and filled with goodness but a flaw in the female portion appeared.

…The Congregation of the eighth Aeon was androgyne, part male, part female.

…The immortals derive their power from Immortal Man, who is named Silence.

But then, e.g. from A Prayer of Saint Paul

… It’s you who are my mind, regenerate me.
It is you who are my treasure, grant some to me.

… Ransom my illuminated soul for eternity …

There are rare touches of the Spirit, but overall they are heavy on eons (Jacobs uses aeons), “He Who Has Ears”, and (struggling to find the words) a kind of pedantic revelatory mysticism.

 

[ChristianSurfer]

See if you can find The Essential Gnostic Gospels (Alan Jacobs, various editions inc. ISBN-978-1842932032, 2006).

It only contains a selection of the texts, and they are paraphrased without chapter and verse, but you will see many ideas that you and your prof won’t recognize, e.g. from The Sophia of Jesus Christ

I tried looking in my local library’s database they dont have it, but i did find the first 30 pages in google books. The quote you left from the Sophia is very interesting stuff if only I had the time to order it on Amazon before the deadline this is the refrence I was looking for.

Thanks Inocente!

 

[ChristianSurfer]

ntcanon.org/

I emailed the creator of the web site to find out about his background, Dr. PhD etc. so I can cite it in.

Thanks thistle!

 

[ChadS]

If you go to newadvent.org and under Fathers you can find the writings of St. Ignatius, who wrote a long refutation of the Gnostic heresies called “Adversus Heresies.” That would give you a primary source to show how Christians in the early centuries were already thinking about the Gnostics. Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel you could use this source to base your paper on.

I would also try to find books by Elaine Pagels. She has written numerous books on the Gnostics. While she is sympathetic to them, she is also a reputable scholar and has done some of the earliest work on them. At the very least it could help flesh out your bibiliography.

Obviously you might not be able to convince your professor of the error of his ways, but you could show in the paper that early Christians thought the Gnostics were cranks and off base and that it’s not just a 21st century thing to think that.

ChadS

 

[ChristianSurfer]

If you go to newadvent.org and under Fathers you can find the writings of St. Ignatius, who wrote a long refutation of the Gnostic heresies called “Adversus Heresies.” That would give you a primary source to show how Christians in the early centuries were already thinking about the Gnostics. Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel you could use this source to base your paper on.

I would also try to find books by Elaine Pagels. She has written numerous books on the Gnostics. While she is sympathetic to them, she is also a reputable scholar and has done some of the earliest work on them. At the very least it could help flesh out your bibiliography.

Obviously you might not be able to convince your professor of the error of his ways, but you could show in the paper that early Christians thought the Gnostics were cranks and off base and that it’s not just a 21st century thing to think that.

ChadS

Hey ChadS thanks alot i used newadvent.org as a main source this website was very informative and scholarly this is what I needed thanks!

Can Gnostics consider themselves Christians since they view that Jesus came to give use secret gnosis instead of being savior and others ideologies they hold…
From Wikipedia- Christians believe Jesus is the son of God, God having become man and the savior of humanity.

 

[CaptainPicard]

Can Gnostics consider themselves Christians since they view that Jesus came to give use secret gnosis instead of being savior and others ideologies they hold…
From Wikipedia- Christians believe Jesus is the son of God, God having become man and the savior of humanity.

Well, the gnostics could consider themselves whatever they want, but they’re basically pagans that adapted Christian terminology. If you haven’t already, I’d recommend reading chapters 1-6 of book one of the already mentioned Against Heresies. It wont take long at all. You can go back and read more later, but just the first few chapters will give you a good idea of what you’re dealing with.

But no, there’s really nothing at all Christian about them.

 

[ChristianSurfer]

Well, the gnostics could consider themselves whatever they want, but they’re basically pagans that adapted Christian terminology. If you haven’t already, I’d recommend reading chapters 1-6 of book one of the already mentioned Against Heresies. It wont take long at all. You can go back and read more later, but just the first few chapters will give you a good idea of what you’re dealing with.

But no, there’s really nothing at all Christian about them.

After writing this paper Ive come to this conclusion.

 

[CaptainPicard]

After writing this paper Ive come to this conclusion.

Ah, good deal. You’ll have to let us know how your teacher likes it.

 

[ChristianSurfer]

Ah, good deal. You’ll have to let us know how your teacher likes it.

Haha well lets just say he had fun with it.

I presented all the ideas based off of the early churches view of the Gnostics suggested by the posts that are above me (btw great unbiased source). I connected all of the conceptual ideas together and contrasted Gnostic doctrine to that of the early church’s. I wrapped it up by saying just because the texts are old doesn’t give them any authority and said that the Da Vinci Code is a fiction mystery novel and should be read as one.

He couldn’t correct any of the context, ideas, and scripture I put into the paper so he felt the only way to get me was to stick it to me with grammatical errors.
You could tell he graded my paper emotionally by his comments; one said “LEARN TO WRITE.” ( It actually was all caps lol)

Knowing this would happen, I sent the paper into a writing center, composed of professors with a master degree in English, where they corrected my grammar and sentence structure. My professor still found enough errors to justify giving me 25 points off (out of a hundred).

Long story short I presented my case back into him after class where he regraded my paper and raised my grade, but it still doesn’t justify grading my paper to a higher standard than others.

By the same words my professor used “The truth doesn’t come easy!”

 

[abucs]

Well done ChristianSurfer.

 

[CaptainPicard]

Haha well lets just say he had fun with it.

I presented all the ideas based off of the early churches view of the Gnostics suggested by the posts that are above me (btw great unbiased source). I connected all of the conceptual ideas together and contrasted Gnostic doctrine to that of the early church’s. I wrapped it up by saying just because the texts are old doesn’t give them any authority and said that the Da Vinci Code is a fiction mystery novel and should be read as one.

He couldn’t correct any of the context, ideas, and scripture I put into the paper so he felt the only way to get me was to stick it to me with grammatical errors.
You could tell he graded my paper emotionally by his comments; one said “LEARN TO WRITE.” ( It actually was all caps lol)

Knowing this would happen, I sent the paper into a writing center, composed of professors with a master degree in English, where they corrected my grammar and sentence structure. My professor still found enough errors to justify giving me 25 points off (out of a hundred).

Long story short I presented my case back into him after class where he regraded my paper and raised my grade, but it still doesn’t justify grading my paper to a higher standard than others.

By the same words my professor used “The truth doesn’t come easy!”

Ha! I remember a time when I was naive and thought that teachers were above that sort of thing. It sounds like it went well, by the way he reacted…