Gnostics in Colossae

[Tezza]

Hi. I need a little help with this.

I’m currently corresponding with a Messianic Jew about matters of faith. I sited Colossians 2:16-17 as St.Paul’s enforcement that Old Testament practices are fulfilled in Christ. My concordance does not specifiy what specific practices are being challenged, but I did site the listing of the festivals resembled Jewish holy days and sabbaths. His reponse:

*This was written by Paul to the predominantly Gentile congregation at Colossae. As good disciples of the Master they were beginning to walk in all His ways and follow the commandments (including the food laws and Sabbath observance). Paul is encouraging them to not let anyone judge them or discourage them regarding their obedience to the commandments.

the “do not handle, do not taste, do not touch” found in verse 21 were definitely ascetic teachings… not Jewish.

He IS referring to G-d’s festivals… not the “teachings of men” (Col 2:22) or the “self-made religion” (verse 23) of the ascetics and gnostics that were trying to confuse the new believers at Colossae. “Don’t let anyone act as your judge” in those matters… the substance of which belongs to Christ our Lord. Why would ascetics and gnostics be encouraging believers to follow the commandments regarding the Sabbath? They WOULDN’T… they were DIScouraging them and trying to get them to follow their ascetic and agnostic customs. Paul was encouraging the believers to stay true to the teachings of Scripture and the example of the Messiah.*

I am confused about his claim that it was gnostic teachings that St. Paul was refuting, not jewish. From what I’ve read, this seems to hold water.

Please help! Thanks so much.

 

[06convert]

This is from a “The Message” translation of the Bible. I’m not sure if this helps. I’m not sure from this who was doing the “pressuring”, or who was obsessed with angels, or harrasing the Christians of the time. Seems to me from what I understand about gnostic’s, their idea of God doesn’t match very well with our beliefs or that of the Jewish for that matter.

Colossians 2
16-17So don’t put up with anyone pressuring you in details of diet, worship services, or holy days. All those things are mere shadows cast before what was to come; the substance is Christ.

18-19Don’t tolerate people who try to run your life, ordering you to bow and scrape, insisting that you join their obsession with angels and that you seek out visions. They’re a lot of hot air, that’s all they are. They’re completely out of touch with the source of life, Christ, who puts us together in one piece, whose very breath and blood flow through us. He is the Head and we are the body. We can grow up healthy in God only as he nourishes us.

20-23So, then, if with Christ you’ve put all that pretentious and infantile religion behind you, why do you let yourselves be bullied by it? “Don’t touch this! Don’t taste that! Don’t go near this!” Do you think things that are here today and gone tomorrow are worth that kind of attention? Such things sound impressive if said in a deep enough voice. They even give the illusion of being pious and humble and ascetic. But they’re just another way of showing off, making yourselves look important.

 

[Eucharisted]

New American Bible
New Testament
Epistle to the Church in Colossae
Chapter 2

1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I am having for you and for those in Laodicea and all who have not seen me face to face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged as they are brought together in love, to have all the richness of fully assured understanding, for the knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 I say this so that no one may deceive you by specious arguments. 5 For even if I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing as I observe your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. 6 So, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him, 7 rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8 See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ. 9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily, 10 and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and power.

11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. 12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; 14 obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims, which was opposed to us, he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross; 15 despoiling the principalities and the powers, he made a public spectacle of them, leading them away in triumph by it.

16 Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath. 17 These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, delighting in self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, inflated without reason by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding closely to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and bonds, achieves the growth that comes from God.

20 If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still living in the world? 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” 22 These are all things destined to perish with use; they accord with human precepts and teachings. 23 While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.

 

[Tezza]

Thank you, though I don’t think he would put much stock in that translation.

 

[eric_sammons]

Tezza,

It would be inaccurate to say that Paul was addressing “Gnostics” in Colossae, as Gnostics did not really exist yet. However, you could call them “proto-Gnostics,” as they seem to have embraced many of the teachings that would later define the Gnosticsm of the 2nd century.

The letter to the Colossians is probably not the best one to use with a Messianic Jew, as it does not really deal with the issue of observance of the law. Romans and Galatians are much more suited for this purpose - especially Galatians. Galatians was written to Paul’s Church there which was now being told that they must follow the Mosaic Law in its entirety. Paul’s position is that doing so is now unnecessary, although he doesn’t ever say that a Christian is prohibited from following it if they want. One of Paul’s main themes is freedom - the disciple is no longer bound to follow the Jewish food laws, etc. If he wants to, he can, but if he does not want to, he does not have to.

Does your Messianic Jew friend believe that all Christians should follow the Mosaic Law?

 

[Tezza]

Tezza,

It would be inaccurate to say that Paul was addressing “Gnostics” in Colossae, as Gnostics did not really exist yet. However, you could call them “proto-Gnostics,” as they seem to have embraced many of the teachings that would later define the Gnosticsm of the 2nd century.

The letter to the Colossians is probably not the best one to use with a Messianic Jew, as it does not really deal with the issue of observance of the law. Romans and Galatians are much more suited for this purpose - especially Galatians. Galatians was written to Paul’s Church there which was now being told that they must follow the Mosaic Law in its entirety. Paul’s position is that doing so is now unnecessary, although he doesn’t ever say that a Christian is prohibited from following it if they want. One of Paul’s main themes is freedom - the disciple is no longer bound to follow the Jewish food laws, etc. If he wants to, he can, but if he does not want to, he does not have to.

Does your Messianic Jew friend believe that all Christians should follow the Mosaic Law?

Thank you for your response. I was reading that gnostics, what you would refer to as proto-gnostics, first seemed to appear on the scene between 200-100 b.c. This was from a Messianic Jewish website:

*Colossians 2:8-10 gives another general definition of Gnosticism, as well as how to combat it:

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the [divine nature] bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Paul writes of a philosophy like Stoicism, not a specific religion, such as Judaism. This is important to recognize, since in verse 16, Paul mentions the Sabbath and holy days, and it is commonly assumed that Paul condemns their observance. Yet, he does not—he warns against a philosophy that disparaged the feasting and joyous observance of the Sabbath and holy days. This is why Paul tells the Colossians to “let no one judge you” with regard to eating, drinking, or observing the weekly and annual Sabbaths—rather than what is commonly read into Colossians 2:16: “There is no reason to keep the Sabbath or holy days.” Christians in Colossae were being pressured by the ascetic society around them, which would have looked down on their feasting*.

It seems to prove his position. I used that scripture because it was cited in numerous articles I read on the Saturday vs. Sunday worship, especially when compared with Hebrews 10:1.

I believe from his passionate stance against the Catholic Church as traditions of men, he probably feels that the only true way to follow Christ is as a Jew.

 

[eric_sammons]

Tezza,

The term “Gnostics” is actually a poor one, because it has been used very generically. Most scholars, however, would say that Christian Gnostics did not appear until the 2nd century - after Paul’s time. But regardless, Paul was not really dealing with Jewish Christians in Colossians, so it’s not a good letter to refer to when dealing with Messianic Jews. Personally, I don’t think the Messianic Jewish interpretation in this particular case is invalid. But that doesn’t mean their overall argument is valid - in fact, it is exactly what Paul fights against throughout most of his ministry, as you can see in Galatians and Romans.

I believe from his passionate stance against the Catholic Church as traditions of men, he probably feels that the only true way to follow Christ is as a Jew.

Quite ironic, since many non-Catholic Christians would consider Catholicism to be as problematic as 1st century Judaism, but this person thinks we should return to that!

 

[Tezza]

Quite ironic, since many non-Catholic Christians would consider Catholicism to be as problematic as 1st century Judaism, but this person thinks we should return to that!

It is, isn’t it? I believe we have a lot more in common than a Catholic and certain Protestant denominations. I have tried to touch an our similarites.

Can you direct me to specific verses in Romans and Galations?

Thanks again!

 

[Tezza]

Quite ironic, since many non-Catholic Christians would consider Catholicism to be as problematic as 1st century Judaism, but this person thinks we should return to that!

It is, isn’t it? We have a lot more in common than with many Protestant denominations. I try to touch on our similiarities.

Can you direct me to specific verses in Galations and Romans?

Thanks again!

 

[eric_sammons]

Tezza,

Can you direct me to specific verses in Galatians and Romans?

I always hesitate to use specific verses for an argument, as they can be so easily twisted out of context.

The truth is that the whole letter of Galatians is about the fact that the Jewish Law is no longer necessary for the Christian. Romans too contains much in this regard.

Some examples:

In Galatians 2, Paul opposes Peter because Peter is not eating with Gentiles, i.e. he is following the law strictly (out of fear of the Judaizers more than anything). If following the law was still necessary, Paul would have no reason to criticize Peter.

In Galatians 3, Paul uses the argument that Abraham was justified not by observance of the law, but by faith (he deepens the argument in Romans 4). If the law was necessary, then Abraham could not be our “father in faith”.

Galatians 3:15-4:7 is a beautiful passage which shows the superiority of life in Christ to observance of the Law. We are sons now not slaves! Those who live under the law are live the children of the slave woman and we are children of the free woman (Galatians 4:21-31).

Honestly, I don’t know how anyone could read (and accept) Galatians and think Christians are still required to follow the old Law.

 

[Ruthie]

I have David H. Stern’s Jewish New Testament Commentary. He is a Messianic Jew.

His commentary on both the verses from Colossians, and Acts 15 (which is what I use to refute the idea that we must obey Jewish law) is of a “milk before meat” nature. I
That is, he believes that the idea was to help the Gentiles convert to the Messiah, then later introduce them to Jewish law, as the best way to imitate Christ.

He proposes that there were two kinds of Pharisees, those that concentrated on the law rather than on God, and those who followed the law out of love of God. I’m sure that’s true!

I can see the reasoning behind his arguments, but I don’t buy them. If they were true, secondary sources such as the Early Fathers would bear them out.

The Apostles and Paul were all Jews. They would have passed this teaching on, if it was God’s plan. They did not.

“That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.”

God bless,

Ruthie

 

[Ruthie]

Tezza,

I have a question for your Messianic friend. It’s not a challenge; it’s a sincere question.

Since Jesus (and Peter) suspended the dietary laws, and the laws of sacrifices were suspended with the destruction of the Temple, what laws are left? Citations from the Pentateuch would be appreciated.

Thank you, and your friend, very much.

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[Tezza]

Tezza,

I have a question for your Messianic friend. It’s not a challenge; it’s a sincere question.

Since Jesus (and Peter) suspended the dietary laws, and the laws of sacrifices were suspended with the destruction of the Temple, what laws are left? Citations from the Pentateuch would be appreciated.

Thank you, and your friend, very much.

God bless you,

Ruthie

Hi Ruthie.

He doesn’t believe that the dietary laws were suspended. As far as the laws of sacrifices, I’m not sure where he is on that. Right now we are discussing the Real Presence and his take that it is pagan influences within the early Church. I don’t get far citing the Church Fathers, because he brings up the fact that they were anti-semitic. I just keep leaning on good 'ole Ignatius on this one, and of course Jesus.

Thanks!