Go away O Go away Emmanuel

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estesbob

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I went to Mass at a Parish I go to perhaps a dozen times a year. . At todays mass the Kyrie, Sanctus,Memorial Acclamation, Great Amen and Agun Dei were all sung to the tune of “O Come O Come Emanuel”(and not sung verry well at that!".)Has anyone else run aross this or is this an “innovation” of this Parish
 
No, unfortunately we used the setting one Advent and one Advent only. Yuch!
 
As distressing as it may seem, this setting is appropriate during Advent, for we are awaiting the coming of the baby Jesus.

Look on the bright side - this is the last Sunday this setting is sung! 🙂
 
It is the “Missa Emmanuel” setting. Unfortunately, it changes the words of the prayer to fit its tune. I know a nearby parish that I’m pretty sure used it all four Sundays of Advent. I’d get a bit sick of it if I had to hear it all throughout Mass four weeks running.
 
this actually should be sung beginning with evening of Dec. 16, when the O Antiphons begin with evening prayer, and there is a date for each verse, corresponding to the antiphon. before that we really should be singing other Advent hymns such as the King of Glory, People Look East, Lo How a Rose etc.
 
japhy said:
It is the “Missa Emmanuel” setting. Unfortunately, it changes the words of the prayer to fit its tune. I know a nearby parish that I’m pretty sure used it all four Sundays of Advent. I’d get a bit sick of it if I had to hear it all throughout Mass four weeks running.
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Yup, Missa Emmanuel, Richard Proulx, SATB/Cantor/Choir/Assembly, GIA Publications G-3489. I have a spare, estesbob, I’ll post you your very own copy if you like. 😛

At first hearing I thought it was a great idea, but on second thought I decided not to introduce it to the parish for the reason japhy cites.

I want the people to be able to sing Veni Emmanuel as she is written without them getting fed up with the tune through a secondary usage. And sing it they do - lustily and with good courage - and that’s the way I think I’ll leave it.
 
Our parish did this, too. I find it VERY diffucult to sing and I’m a trained musician.

Jennifer
 
That setting is quite popular around here. We are using it at our parish church, and they always use it for Advent at the cathedral as well. I don’t find it difficult to sing, but maybe that’s just because I’m used to it; it’s not at all intuitive for the untrained musician. We have also been singing “O Come, O Come…” as a hymn, so I’m about Emmanuel-ed-out. No problem, though; we’re using the Mass of Creation for Midnight Mass. Relief at last! 😃
 
You know what they say about too much of a great thing. O Come O Come… is a fantastic hymn and the tune it uses is hauntingly beautiful (though the one we use is only one of several different tunes possible) and is one of my favorite hymns…which is why I only do it twice a year, once as the opening for 3rd Sunday of Advent, and once as the postlude for 4th Sunday.

The tune and the text work very well together, but extract the tune and try to apply it to other stuff…and the result leaves you wanting. That mass simply sounds forced, the text and the music just don’t “jive” so to speak.

Now this is not to say that it can’t be done, it just has to be much more subtle. Perhaps if it were a setting with a hint of O Come… in one of the inner voices, or maybe the bass line is the original melody and the main part is something entirely new. That would be a very interesting experiment.

When composer’s took the tune to “L’homme arme”, they didn’t shove the melody down your throat, it was used in a much more low key manner. They took something old, and made something new with it rather than taking something old, and just make it sound tired.
 
Hello,

Since Veni, Veni, Emmanuel is Gregorian Chant (Mode I) - I don’t see how using that Gregorian melody in other aspects of the Liturgy could be problematic.
 
Jennifer_J said:
Our parish did this, too. I find it VERY diffucult to sing and I’m a trained musician.

Jennifer
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Yes, my newly former parish does this Missa Emmanuel as well. (We were just granted permission to register at our Cathedral which we’ve been attending for about 8 years and have been part of.)

I never heard of it until this year when I had volunteered to cantor at my former parish. It’s ok to sing for me, but I’m trained and a professional musician, but for the congregation, I found that they have a hard time singing it. The Sanctus especially. That parish is a real singing parish, too, so it’s not because they just don’t sing. Sometimes they bring down the house with their singing.
The problem with it is the way the text is set to the music. It feels forced - sort of like trying to squeeze yourself into a size 0/2 when you are a 4/6. 😛 You can get it up around the hips, but it’s a bit too snug and won’t zipper up all the way. It just doesn’t look or feel quite right. That’s how the text setting feels with me.

Actually, one of the priests at that parish got into a really hot discussion with the other priests and the music director about it, saying that as long as he is saying mass, never to have that Missa Emmanuel played.

I love the melody for the Veni, Veni, but not for the mass parts. It’s just doesn’t work IMO.
 
Veni Emmanual is actually an ideal hymn. It sounds decent even with congregations that can’t carry a tune, because of its limited range of notes and a simple rhythm pattern.

But singing everything with the same tune just doesn’t work, particularly singing prayers with set texts that can’t be adjusted for the music.
 
puzzleannie said:
this actually should be sung beginning with evening of Dec. 16, when the O Antiphons begin with evening prayer, and there is a date for each verse, corresponding to the antiphon. before that we really should be singing other Advent hymns such as the King of Glory, People Look East, Lo How a Rose etc.
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I think what the OP meant was that all the acclamations they use during Advent are set to the tune of O Come, O Come…
 
JMJ_coder said:
Since Veni, Veni, Emmanuel is Gregorian Chant (Mode I) - I don’t see how using that Gregorian melody in other aspects of the Liturgy could be problematic.
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Well, perhaps using it in ONE other place would work… but the tune is used for ALL of the other parts. It’s stupid. The traditional Mass settings don’t use the same tune for all the parts.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Since Veni, Veni, Emmanuel is Gregorian Chant (Mode I) - I don’t see how using that Gregorian melody in other aspects of the Liturgy could be problematic.
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The melody isn’t the issue here. The problem is that the wording is awkward. The Mass parts have words stretched out over several notes in order to make the text fit the melody, and those words are not necessarily ones that a singer would emphasize in “normal” singing. “Ho-ly ho-ly ho-o-o-ly Lord, God of pow’r and Go-o-od of might, Hea-ven and ear-er-er-erth are fu-ull of Your glo-o-o-o-ry.” Try to sing it and you’ll see what people are complaining about. Musically, it’s like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
 
Hello,
japhy said:
Well, perhaps using it in ONE other place would work… but the tune is used for ALL of the other parts. It’s stupid. The traditional Mass settings don’t use the same tune for all the parts.
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All the traditional Mass settings have a common thread - like a les motif. That is within a Mass setting, all the parts have a common theme or mode. (note: that doesn’t mean that they sound the same)
 
Hello,
CarrieH said:
The melody isn’t the issue here. The problem is that the wording is awkward. The Mass parts have words stretched out over several notes in order to make the text fit the melody, and those words are not necessarily ones that a singer would emphasize in “normal” singing. “Ho-ly ho-ly ho-o-o-ly Lord, God of pow’r and Go-o-od of might, Hea-ven and ear-er-er-erth are fu-ull of Your glo-o-o-o-ry.” Try to sing it and you’ll see what people are complaining about. Musically, it’s like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
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Where was it that I just read a great article on it? In it, it cited that it was the modern ICEL translations that were to blame for a lot of it. Also, it would depend on the person setting the words to the music - it’s a special skill and not just a corporate decision (and I mean corporate in its capitalistic and pejorative sense).

Of course, we would not have these issues if we returned (at a minimum) all the ordinaries back to Latin (regardless of whether that Mass is OF or EF). 😉
 
pm1853 said:
When composer’s took the tune to “L’homme arme”, they didn’t shove the melody down your throat, it was used in a much more low key manner. They took something old, and made something new with it rather than taking something old, and just make it sound tired.
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Are we talking about the same setting? Veni, veni, Emmanuel is not L’homme, l’homme, l’homme arme. L’homme, arme, l’homme arme, l’homarme condute. The first is early plainsong. The second is from the Hundred Years War. Not the same.
 
Ah, yes. “Missa Emmanuel”.

The final straw in me leaving one of my former parishes. The total gutting of the Agnus Dei was the reason.
 
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