Go directly to hell, do not pass go!

[Peter3120]

I was raised by nuns and Xaverian Brothers in grammar and Prep school respectively.

We were taught that masturbation, referred to as “self-abuse,” was a mortal sin. This meant that the individual would be sent to hell to be punished for all eternity.

I am now 60. It seems to me that the loving Christ as seen in scripture could not sanction such a punishment for an act which is today thought of by most professionals and thoughtful people as perfectly natural.

I have been away from the church for years after an adolescence full of guilt and endless confessions for this transgression.

Does the church still teach this? If it does not, I have another reason to return to the practice of my faith.

I agree with the church on abortion. But I do not understand why birth control, which might prevent the unwanted pregnancy, is regarded as such a serious transgression. To allow the latter would help reduce the former.

I hope I don’t get chewed out for asking these questions but I do so in good faith in an attempt to return to my faith.

Thanks for reading this.

Peter 3120

 

[LilyM]

I’m not going to chew you out. The fact is, though, that Christ, loving though he was, did not condone adultery - nor even lustful THOUGHTS in that direction. Nor (if we are to believe St Paul) were such things as premarital sex (fornication) or homosexuality tolerated by the early Church.

Masturbation causes as many harms and is as much contrary to the purpose of sex as adultery or homosexuality. In other words it gives those who practice it the mistaken idea that sex should be purely about the pleasure of the individual to the exclusion of all else. This is simply not the case, otherwise there would be nothing wrong with consensual adultery, homosexuality etc.

Having said that - of course we have a greater understanding of human sexuality and such things as sexual addictions that are factors in sexual behaviour. And the church does now teach that factors such as addiction can (not always but sometimes) lessen someone’s culpability for the addictive behaviour to the point where the sin is no longer mortal.

Objectively, masturbation is still gravely wrong and a disordered use of our God-given sexual faculties. And it may be ‘natural’, but then so are things such as lying to get out of trouble, or anger. These are still sins, and can still be serious and indeed mortal depending on the circumstances. We are much more than our biology, much more than our ‘nature’, however strong a factor this may be in our lives.

I’d advise you to read John Paul II’s excellent book on Theology of the Body to get a better understanding of the Church’s view on this and other sexual matters.

 

[puzzleannie]

I was raised by nuns and Xaverian Brothers in grammar and Prep school respectively.

We were taught that masturbation, referred to as “self-abuse,” was a mortal sin. This meant that the individual would be sent to hell to be punished for all eternity.

well I was raised by Dominicans, my husband by Augustinian friars, and my children by Ursulines and Jesuits, and we were all taught about mortal sin, sexual and otherwise, but we were not taught this meant automatic banishment to hell for all eternity. We were also taught about the grace, mercy and forgiveness of Christ through the sacraments. It is only by dying in a state of unrepented mortal sin and refusing God’s mercy and forgiveness at the moment of death that one chooses hell and loses heaven.

 

[undeserving]

Peter,
don’t look at masturbation. abortion, birthcontrol as separate issues. The rational behind the Church’s teachings are interlinked,someone here advised you to read JP II’s wonderful book. Pl do so. The Church is about reverance for life. If you are seriously considering returning to the Church, it is not an impulse you have thought out for yourself. He is calling you back. Ponder, meditate, and study, but take this call very very seriously.

 

[1ke]

We were taught that masturbation, referred to as “self-abuse,” was a mortal sin.

Yes, this is grave matter. Which means it is a mortal sin if done with full knowledge and free will. This is a sin against the sixth commandment.

This meant that the individual would be sent to hell to be punished for all eternity.

Unrepentent mortal sin separates us from God. Confession and repentance are always available. Therefore, no mortal sin sends us “straight to hell”. God is always waiting for us to come back to him.

I am now 60. It seems to me that the loving Christ as seen in scripture could not sanction such a punishment for an act which is today thought of by most professionals and thoughtful people as perfectly natural.

You have allowed secular thinking-- which is not founded in fact or in the Truth of God-- to cloud your thinking on this issue. Just because some so-called professionals go around telling people it is “perfectly natural” does not mean that it is. Professionals also go around telling people abortion is “perfectly natural” and a “legitimate choice”. It does not make it true.

First, we always have a choice and God allows us free will. If you choose to separate yourself from God, he will allow that even though the consequences are eternal.

I have been away from the church for years after an adolescence full of guilt and endless confessions for this transgression.

If you confessed your sin, then you are forgiven. No need for guilt. If you continue to commit this act over and over, I suggest that you seek some help and guidance from a priest, the organization www.dads.org, the organization www.pureloveclub.com or some other group. It’s a disordered view of sex, and rather than approaching it with “guilt” you should approach it from the fact that it is keeping you from a full expression of your sexuality as God intended you to express it because it is a self-seeking act rather than a life-giving shared act of spouses.

Don’t let this keep you away from God. God can heal and conquer all things.

Does the church still teach this? If it does not, I have another reason to return to the practice of my faith.

Of course it does. It is a Truth of God, which does not change. God is eternal. However, it is no reason to stay away from the Church. Instead, embrace the Church and learn why this is a disordered use of the gift of sex.

I agree with the church on abortion. But I do not understand why birth control, which might prevent the unwanted pregnancy, is regarded as such a serious transgression. To allow the latter would help reduce the former.

Contraception has in fact increased abortion by increasing promiscuous sex over the last 40 years. Your idea that contraception “prevents” pregnancy is flawed. When two people engage in sex, a pregnancy is a natural outcome of that act. Sex is designed to result in pregnancy. When two people who are not in a position to accept or welcome a pregnancy have sex, they intend to prevent a pregnancy. But, that does not always happen. They attempt to twart the natural outcome. If they are unsuccessful, they use abortion as a back up. Before abortion was available, people thought twice about the possibility that their promiscuous sex could lead to pregnancy. Now they do not. In fact, when you review data **(information sheets filled out by women at the abortion clinic and reported to the CDC by law) **you find that only a very small group of less than 10% are aborting for what are called the “life threatening, rape, and incest” exceptions. That leaves 90% aborting for convenience– and the majority of women report on their forms that they were using contraception in the month they became pregnant. The evidence completely refutes what you have asserted here.

It isn’t contraception that will reduce abortion. It is abstaining from sex when you cannot welcome a child.

However, this is not the basis of the Church’s teaching that it is wrong. I recommend you get some literature on this subject, or start a thread or read through the numerous threads on why contraception is wrong and a violation of the sixth commandment.

I hope I don’t get chewed out for asking these questions but I do so in good faith in an attempt to return to my faith.

No one should “chew you out” for asking honest questions. It is clear that you want to return to the church. I suggest that you DO return to the church. Go see a priest, go to Confession, and begin to learn what the Church teaches and why. You should study and search, but staying away from the Church is not the answer.

 

[wcknight]

Peter, it seems you are hung up on perfect behavior. Everyone sins, Jesus tells us the just man sins 70 times per day. We are all working towards perfection, but few of us ever achive it in this lifetime.

God accepts us with our flaws. As long as we are striving to become better, we are in good shape. Whenever we fall need to get up and keep trying. That is what confession is for. It is Satan who tells us to stay down and give us. We need to be able to admit we were wrong and try a bit harder next time.

I think for most folks (esp young males) it takes quite a while to overcome the problem of masturbation. Just because the popular culture tells us it is perfectly natural does not make it right.

Normally in nature it is perfectly natural for creatures to have sex with whatever individual that comes along. BUT we as not just any ordinary creature, we have an intellect and moral code that helps us control our baser instincts. We may be natually attracted to every pretty thing that comes along, but we can not act on those impluses even though this is perfectly natural.

Return to the Church, it is in your own best interest. May God grant you the grace to follow His way and not your own.

 

[manualman]

What has changed is that the Church does a better job of explaining mortal sin. It was once common for the concept to be taught as you describe: This list of stuff is ‘mortal sin.’

But that was NEVER an accurate summary of church teaching. In reality, that list constituted ‘grave matter’ which is the kind of sin that has the POTENTIAL to be mortal. In other words, to use your example, if you with FULL knowledge of the sinfulness (which includes why) and FULL consent (no pathology that diminishes your ability to consent) decide to masturbate, then yes, that becomes a mortal sin. But only God is the actual judge. We must confess grave sins as if they are mortal, but only God really knows if all the criteria actually apply.

BTW, you can’t REALLY tell me that you masturbated in the absence of lustful thoughts. I’m a guy and I know better. All the rationalization in the world can’t wish away Jesus’ words about whoever lusts after a woman in his heart commits adultery.

Fornication, inner lustful thoughts, adultery all are manifestations of a choice to see woman as an object to be used instead of a priceless creature made in the image and likeness of God. Admit it to yourself: you know this is wrong, even if you can’t always stop yourself.

The point to remember is that your failures don’t diminish how much God loves you. Put those failures to use in cultivating your humility and recognition that your own strength is not enough and that you need the Grace of God to become more than you are. God doesn’t EXPECT you to achieve perfection by your own will and strength. This is the false understanding behind the old catholic guilt syndrome. He expects you to admit that you can’t and accept HIS strength as a substitute. Then your failures become not so surprising or debilitating. Just things to confess and learn from and move on.

 

[trogiah]

You mention learning of the Christ in Scriptures and what you see there appears to make an impression. I encourage you to go with that because the message is often misinterpreted.

Condemnation for sins results from the failure to practive forgiveness in ones own life. There is no particular sin of the flesh that warrants eternal damnation unless we treat others as as though it does.

“Forgive us our sins as we forgive others. If you forgive others their sins, your heavenly father will forgive you yours.”

Be certain of this, if you practice forgiveness of others, God will forgive you for any sins of the flesh.

This is not to say that there aren’t temporal but still real consequences for sexual immorality. Those consequences do depend on the seriousness of the deed. An act of adultery does carry greater consequence than a moment of self-gratification in private.

Keep on your path towards understanding and living in God’s kingdom. That is what it is all about

Peace

Jim

 

[DaveBj]

Peter, it seems you are hung up on perfect behavior. Everyone sins, Jesus tells us the just man sins 70 times per day.

snip

Nitpicking and slightly off-topic, but where’s that in the Scriptures or in tradition?

DaveBj

 

[gardenswithkids]

In the time you were away, the Church published a new Catechism. It is a splendid reference guide to find out what the Church actually teaches. Here’s point 2352 of the Catechism. I highlighted part of what it says about the force of acquired habit reduing moral culpability. While it still remains grave matter, it may not always be a mortal sin.

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[mzungu1]

I pray that it is not so for I am in youre shoes! I pray that you come back to the church and that we both try to get back on the right track.

Godspeen and Godbless!

 

[gardenswithkids]

Nitpicking and slightly off-topic, but where’s that in the Scriptures or in tradition?

DaveBj

Proverbs 24:16 “for a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again…”

 

[DaveBj]

Proverbs 24:16 “for a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again…”

I have read that, but seven is not 70, there’s no mention of "every day, and Proverbs is not the red print in the Gospels. My question still stands.

DaveBj

 

[psteichen]

…with FULL knowledge of the sinfulness (which includes why)…

I hesitate to be picky as well, as this is a serious concern for the original poster and many many other men. I only do for the sake of accuracy.

manualman: Where do you get the (which includes why) part?

CCC
1859: Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. (continues)

Full knowledge of the sinful character, not full knowledge of why it is sinful. Eve knew that eating the apple went against God’s will (sin). God never explained why this was his will, thus knowing why doesnt matter when considering knowledge of the sinful character of an act. If you believe the Church teaches the truth then when they tell you it is sinful you have full knowledge. If you don’t believe the Church teaches truth, then why be Catholic?

Fortunately for the original poster and others in his shoes this is not the only criteria. You also need complete consent, and in the case of an addiction, consent may be limited.

 

[wcknight]

I have read that, but seven is not 70, there’s no mention of "every day, and Proverbs is not the red print in the Gospels. My question still stands.

DaveBj

sorry, I don’t have the quote for chapter and verse and I’m not in the habit of memorizing where I read things. It’s something I thought I read.

 

[manualman]

Hmm, I’m not sure I can give an airtight defense for my statement about ‘including why.’

But I suspect that the Fall illustrates MY point better than yours, just as my own observations in my kids does. Eve didn’t understand WHY she shouldn’t eat the apple. Instead she substituted a truncated “I’ll die if I eat it” attitude that smacks of rule following, not genuine unity with the will of God. Satan was able to use her lazy moral principle on the issue to tempt her to eat it.

I find the same thing with my kids. If I say, “NO, you can’t watch the TV show mom is watching, come build a lego house in the other room with me” they will fight and whine and generally want what I told them not to do. If I tell them "NO, you can’t watch the TV show mom is watching because it is scary and will give you nightmares, they don’t fight me.

We’re more like kids than we like to admit. I realize this isn’t as tidy as a catchism reference, but I believe God is perfectly just and it is just human nature that it is easier to actually live out principles you believe in than to follow rules you don’t understand.

 

[fix]

There is no particular sin of the flesh that warrants eternal damnation unless we treat others as as though it does.

Particular acts, mortal sin, can lead us to damnation.

…With every freely committed mortal sin, he offends God as the giver of the law and as a result becomes guilty with regard to the entire law (cf. Jas 2:8-11); even if he perseveres in faith, he loses “sanctifying grace”, “charity” and “eternal happiness”.114 As the Council of Trent teaches, “the grace of justification once received is lost not only by apostasy, by which faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin”.115…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

 

[setter]

Does the church still teach this? If it does not, I have another reason to return to the practice of my faith.

I agree with the church on abortion. But I do not understand why birth control, which might prevent the unwanted pregnancy, is regarded as such a serious transgression. To allow the latter would help reduce the former.

I hope I don’t get chewed out for asking these questions but I do so in good faith in an attempt to return to my faith.

Thanks for reading this.

Peter 3120

Please take this feedback in a spirit of charity.

You appear hell bent on negotiating your return to the Church on your terms only, and are holding out until such terms are met to your approval and satisfaction. At your advancing age, I believe that the adage “pride comes before the fall” should be taking on more relevence as your time is nearer the end than the beginning of your earthly journey, upon which your actions and intentions of the heart will be judged. Time to “grow up” in the faith and become more a mature son/daughter in Christ, and not as a infant operating out of childish guilt or understanding of the faith.

Suggestion: Begin with the safe and secure assumption that the Church is right and has the authority of Christ in matters of faith and morals. Act accordingly in good (well-formed and informed) conscience. Then make it your mission to investigate, educate and attain understanding as to why the Church is right and the eternal benefit of aligning your will with the Church in matters of faith and morals.

“For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.” Heb.5: 12-14

 

[LilyM]

Hmm, I’m not sure I can give an airtight defense for my statement about ‘including why.’

But I suspect that the Fall illustrates MY point better than yours, just as my own observations in my kids does. Eve didn’t understand WHY she shouldn’t eat the apple. Instead she substituted a truncated “I’ll die if I eat it” attitude that smacks of rule following, not genuine unity with the will of God. Satan was able to use her lazy moral principle on the issue to tempt her to eat it.

I find the same thing with my kids. If I say, “NO, you can’t watch the TV show mom is watching, come build a lego house in the other room with me” they will fight and whine and generally want what I told them not to do. If I tell them "NO, you can’t watch the TV show mom is watching because it is scary and will give you nightmares, they don’t fight me.

We’re more like kids than we like to admit. I realize this isn’t as tidy as a catchism reference, but I believe God is perfectly just and it is just human nature that it is easier to actually live out principles you believe in than to follow rules you don’t understand.

Actually, it wasn’t that Eve had a faulty or lazy understanding of anything. Read Genesis - God’s exact words were ‘From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die’ (2:17). No more or less.

He didn’t explain why, simply gave the command and required obedience. Why should we require more in regard to the law of the Almighty, all-wise and all-good God before we obey Him? Are we his creatures and his loving children or not?

 

[psteichen]

Hmm, I’m not sure I can give an airtight defense for my statement about ‘including why.’

But I suspect that the Fall illustrates MY point better than yours, just as my own observations in my kids does. Eve didn’t understand WHY she shouldn’t eat the apple. Instead she substituted a truncated “I’ll die if I eat it” attitude that smacks of rule following, not genuine unity with the will of God. Satan was able to use her lazy moral principle on the issue to tempt her to eat it.
.
.
.
I believe God is perfectly just and it is just human nature that it is easier to actually live out principles you believe in than to follow rules you don’t understand.

The problem with your argument is that God obviously doesn’t agree. Sure Eve was tempted more easily because she didn’t fully understand why she shouldn’t eat the apple. But that didn’t stop God from punishing her and holding her accountable for her actions. Thus God doesn’t care why you were tempted to disobey, only that you knew it was against His will and did it anyway.

Perhaps those who don’t understand the whys should do some studying lest they find themselves in the same position.