Go East? Or stay West?

[Herman1]

Greetings.

I’m new to the forums. Looks like a good place to get some prayerful support and feedback…which I need.

I’ve recently found myself in a very spiritually challenging predicament. A few years back I moved to a small town which I love and plan on making my permanent home. We have one Catholic church in town, many Evangelical communities, and an Orthodox church as well. I’m a life long, very devout Catholic who has weathered many storms over the years from being a part of terribly dysfunctional parishes that have truly tested my faith in many ways. Yet, in the midst of it all, I stayed the course. That pattern has followed me to my current location.

It’s a loooooong story, but after several years of trying to put up with and tolerate the (at times) heretical and extremely uncharitable antics of yet another dying parish, I’ve simply reached a point that I had to move on and seek out a different spiritual home. Again, it’s a looooong, loooong painful story, but the bottom line is that I simply cannot remain at our local Catholic parish. It truly does me more harm than good to be there.

I’ve been praying about what to do for months and months. Finally, a few weeks ago something happened during the homily that was so offensive to me and a handful of the other stuggleing-to-be-faithful flock, that I simply left and knew that I could and would never go back to that community.

Again, there are no other Catholic parishes in the area and I did not have a desire to join a protestant church, so I’ve since started attending the Divine Liturgy on Sundays at our local Orthodox church. I have to admit, I love it! For the first time in decades I have actually been able to pray at church! Imagine that! I have found an incredible sense of reverence, a tremendous respect for the sacred, and a community that does not gather to gossip, seek entertainment, and complain if the liturgy goes for an hour. Instead, this community truly embodies the definition of “liturgy” (The work of God). They willingly come to a service in which you stand the entire time for two hours or so and remain completely focused on full, active, participation. Not to mention, the liturgy itself is TRULY rooted in unbroken, Sacred Tradition, and the beauty of it quite literally MAKES you want to pray and worship God.

The Orthodox liturgy simply does not allow for the insane, subjective nonsense of renegade clergy or parish “liturgical directors” that have an axe to grind. The rather short homily at the Orthodox service, like everything else in the liturgy, servers to nourish one’s soul and remains completely focused on living out the faith…in a faithful manner. I have to admit, I feel like I’m finally home! This is what I have yearned for as a Catholic my entire life, and never found. And, while I appreciate the Latin Mass, I’ve always felt it difficult to fully participate, being that the liturgy is in Latin! Plus, we just don’t have that option here.

I studied church history and theology extensively in my college years, but I’ve since begun revisiting those subjects, this time in a much more balanced, in-depth manner, from both the East and West perspectives. This time, the more I learn, the more I’m starting to feel myself drawn toward the East. I’m not ready to convert yet or anything of that sort, as this has been a journey that is 40 years in the making, but I’m definitely finding myself experiencing much peace and grace worshiping with the Orthodox community.

Any insights or prayerful suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

[brigid12]

Have you tried the Eastern Catholic Churches? I think you’d find the Byzantine liturgy to meet your wishes. That is the same liturgy that the Orthodox use, however it is in union with the Pope and it would fulfill your Sunday Obligation. Look one up on the internet or even in the phonebook. It sounds like you’d be pleasantly surprised.

Oh, and remember that you’ll be getting a new pastor at the church you’ve attended in not too many years.

Have you been going to the Latin Mass? It sounds as if you have. I hope it’s one that’s in union with Rome! You might look into the Ordinary form of the Mass or the Novus Ordo. You won’t be standing up for two hours, but the people who designed it (from the Latin Mass) put it in ordinary speech and there is full participation.

 

[Herman1]

Thanks for the reply. I live in a very remote, small town, with the closest Catholic parish of any kind being well over a hundred miles away. And, the serious, dysfunctional issues at our only parish will unfortunately not be solved by a new priest, as they go much deeper and are also rooted in many of the parish members, who essentially run the place and who will most likely be around for a long, long time. Unfortunately, the only two options are going to the Orthodox church, or remaining at the Catholic parish…which is actually far removed from truly being a Catholic parish. The Orthodox parish is actually much more “Catholic.”

 

[brigid12]

I’d check where you can find an Eastern Catholic parish. I realize that there probably won’t be one in your town, but maybe closer than 100 miles.

Also, a new pastor can have a real say in what happens in his liturgy and the homily, of course. He wouldn’t be able to take care of people who aren’t nice or who gossip tho’.

 

[JRS_88]

Well, if there’s no other Latin rite, or Eastern Catholic church, you’re certainly in
a tough spot if you feel that strongly about the current parish.

Have you met with the Orthodox priest?

 

[Herman1]

Yes, I’ve met with the Orthodox priest and he is a great guy! Very understanding of my situation, welcoming, and not pressuring me to convert or do anything I don’t feel comfortable with in regard to Orthodoxy.

 

[Bataar]

I’d probably go to the Orthodox church. I know exactly the kind of Catholic church you’re talking about as there are numerous ones like that in the greater Seattle area. Thankfully, the one I attend is a little bit (but not much) better. I used to go to a church that I eventually came to view as an occasion of sin as I’d get so mad going there and knew I wasn’t gaining anything from it. I blame this problem on the Catholic church and the bishops. They’re the ones driving people like us away by not correcting (or even encouraging) these rampant problems.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you’re happy at the Orthodox parish, then go.

Jesus may be calling you there, for it’s where he’ll feed you best.

Jim

 

[Herman1]

I blame this problem on the Catholic church and the bishops. They’re the ones driving people like us away by not correcting (or even encouraging) these rampant problems.

I blame them as well. From what I understand, the only major rift between the East and West that has not been settled to date is the issue of papal authority and unity. I have to admit, I’m starting to see those things as being mostly an illusion in the Catholic Church. Much of the clergy, and perhaps a majority of the laity, are in fact, not in union with what the Church teaches on many issues (especially faith and morals) as well as what the Church officially mandates as proper liturgical practices. They only pay lip service. Not to mention, from what I understand a fair number of the hierarchy is not even in full union with the Pope and Church teaching on many issues. I’m experiencing far more faithfulness and unity in regard to these matters in the Orthodox Church. Sacred Tradition, and being united in it, seems to truly count for something in the East still.

 

[Errham]

The truth is, that despite what many conservatives on both sides think, the Catholic/Orthodox difference isn’t a True Church vs. Heretical Church issue. We recognize Orthodox sacraments (including Eucharists) as valid, and are allowed to receive them in times of need under certain circumstances, and we also recognize their apostolic succession. So, although the two Churches may be in partial schism with each other, they’re both legitimate in the eyes of God, as Christ, at least in my opinion, would never allow a Church that teaches false doctrine or that is even partially heretical a share in his most precious body and blood. The difference between the two is simply one of worldview. Catholic thinking is majorly based on St. Augustine, St. Ambrose and St. Aquinas - a worldview focused on man’s fallen nature and his need to absolve himself before God. A repentant worldview, in short. Orthodox theology on the other hand considers this worldview to be foreign; it has been defined most clearly by the great Hesychasts, with St. Palamas being chief among them. It centers less on man’s repentance before God, and more on man’s journey TO God. The Catholic view is that, if we live a life of penance, we enter heaven and become partakers in Christ’s divine glory. The Orthodox believe that this is not a heavenly aspiration, but something to achieve here on Earth, and that is what the Orthodox lifestyle centers around. Ambrosian Satisfaction vs. Palamatic Theosis, to use the theological terms.

I would think, that the main issue here is not one of doctrine; it’s of calling. Pray to God that he shows you where to go, and follow his will at all times. While I personally am biased towards the Catholic side, I will state again that the Eucharistic communion shared by the two Churches implies legitimacy of both. So don’t beat yourself up over the issue. Pray, and you will see the light.

 

[PJM]

=Herman1;13033519]Greetings.

I’m new to the forums. Looks like a good place to get some prayerful support and feedback…which I need.

I’ve recently found myself in a very spiritually challenging predicament. A few years back I moved to a small town which I love and plan on making my permanent home. We have one Catholic church in town, many Evangelical communities, and an Orthodox church as well. I’m a life long, very devout Catholic who has weathered many storms over the years from being a part of terribly dysfunctional parishes that have truly tested my faith in many ways. Yet, in the midst of it all, I stayed the course. That pattern has followed me to my current location.

It’s a loooooong story, but after several years of trying to put up with and tolerate the (at times) heretical and extremely uncharitable antics of yet another dying parish, I’ve simply reached a point that I had to move on and seek out a different spiritual home. Again, it’s a looooong, loooong painful story, but the bottom line is that I simply cannot remain at our local Catholic parish. It truly does me more harm than good to be there.

I’ve been praying about what to do for months and months. Finally, a few weeks ago something happened during the homily that was so offensive to me and a handful of the other stuggleing-to-be-faithful flock, that I simply left and knew that I could and would never go back to that community.

Again, there are no other Catholic parishes in the area and I did not have a desire to join a protestant church, so I’ve since started attending the Divine Liturgy on Sundays at our local Orthodox church. I have to admit, I love it! For the first time in decades I have actually been able to pray at church! Imagine that! I have found an incredible sense of reverence, a tremendous respect for the sacred, and a community that does not gather to gossip, seek entertainment, and complain if the liturgy goes for an hour. Instead, this community truly embodies the definition of “liturgy” (The work of God). They willingly come to a service in which you stand the entire time for two hours or so and remain completely focused on full, active, participation. Not to mention, the liturgy itself is TRULY rooted in unbroken, Sacred Tradition, and the beauty of it quite literally MAKES you want to pray and worship God.

The Orthodox liturgy simply does not allow for the insane, subjective nonsense of renegade clergy or parish “liturgical directors” that have an axe to grind. The rather short homily at the Orthodox service, like everything else in the liturgy, servers to nourish one’s soul and remains completely focused on living out the faith…in a faithful manner. I have to admit, I feel like I’m finally home! This is what I have yearned for as a Catholic my entire life, and never found. And, while I appreciate the Latin Mass, I’ve always felt it difficult to fully participate, being that the liturgy is in Latin! Plus, we just don’t have that option here.

I studied church history and theology extensively in my college years, but I’ve since begun revisiting those subjects, this time in a much more balanced, in-depth manner, from both the East and West perspectives. This time, the more I learn, the more I’m starting to feel myself drawn toward the East. I’m not ready to convert yet or anything of that sort, as this has been a journey that is 40 years in the making, but I’m definitely finding myself experiencing much peace and grace worshiping with the Orthodox community.

Any insights or prayerful suggestions would be much appreciated.

TRUST ME, I Do know what you means are are going through.

BUT, God choose just one Chosen people in the OT [Exo 6:7] and Christ followed suit [after all they ARE the same God], with just One Church with One Faith: [Mt.16:15-19; Mt.28:16-20 & Eph. 4: 1-7]

Mass is NOT about US; its about** us** giving Divine Worship to OUR God.

So long as the correct forms [unlevened bread and wine] & and the RIGHT words of Consecration are used the Mas is VALID. Is it “licit” is perhaps a different story?

So accept what is as you’re custom designed Cross by Christ Himself and PRAY MUCH!

Luke 9:23
“And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”

LIfe is not easy because its not supposed to be easy. Amen!

Close your eyes to the abuses unless they invalidate the Mass then contact the local Bishop. Offer up your pain for the priest and parish. It may be that he was imporperly trained?

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Herman1]

I would think, that the main issue here is not one of doctrine; it’s of calling. Pray to God that he shows you where to go, and follow his will at all times. While I personally am biased towards the Catholic side, I will state again that the Eucharistic communion shared by the two Churches implies legitimacy of both. So don’t beat yourself up over the issue. Pray, and you will see the light.

Thanks. Those are wise words.

 

[Herman1]

Close your eyes to the abuses unless they invalidate the Mass then contact the local Bishop. Offer up your pain for the priest and parish. It may be that he was imporperly trained?

With all do respect Patrick, this is exactly why the Catholic Church and so many parishes are in such a catastrophic state of corruption and chaos, and as a result are driving so many good people away. The Western Church has been so saturated with abuses of every kind…from the top down…for so long, and during that time so many people have simply closed their eyes to it that we now have the situation we do. I know that going to Mass is not about my own gratification, but about offering true, “Divine worship” to our God. However, I simply find it nearly impossible to do so in such parishes that are filled with utter heretical insanity and irreverence…which the bishop knows about and has done nothing…as is usually the case in such instances, sadly.

 

[PJM]

=Herman1;13038584]With all do respect Patrick, this is exactly why the Catholic Church and so many parishes are in such a catastrophic state of corruption and chaos, and as a result are driving so many good people away. The Western Church has been so saturated with abuses of every kind…from the top down…for so long, and during that time so many people have simply closed their eyes to it that we now have the situation we do. I know that going to Mass is not about my own gratification, but about offering true, “Divine worship” to our God. However, I simply find it nearly impossible to do so in such parishes that are filled with utter heretical insanity and irreverence…which the bishop knows about and has done nothing…as is usually the case in such instances, sadly.

Perhaps my friend?

But the real problem is proper formation of our priest and also thorough catechesis of the laity.

In the end, either God is in charge or we are. It’s no more complex than that. No doubt God is as dismayed as are WE, but the Liturgy is ABOUT GOD, not how we feel about it.

The passage I shared about our Cross and taking it up daily is repeated FOUR times. As you likely know, the more often a passage is repeated the greater is its importance

GOD GRANT ME THE
SERENITY TO ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE [EXCEPT BY PRAYER]
THE COURAGE TO CHANGE THE THINGS THAT I CAN
AND THE WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. Amen:thumbsup:
.