Go To Hell You Evil Doer

[christcnection1]

I have problem accepting a Church teaching, and I’m trying to gain some insight. First of all, I’m a new, but faithful Catholic. I’m even discerning the priesthood/religious life, and plan on doing two-years of missionary work with the Capuchin Franciscans in Papua New Guinea.

My understanding is that eating meat on a Friday during Lent is a mortal sin. I have a very difficult time accepting this. I can’t see how the Lord of compassion and mercy would fling someone into an eternal lake of fire for eating meat on a Friday during Lent. It seems totally ridiculous and unreasonable to me.

Let me also say that I think the practice of not eating meat on Friday is a great spiritual practice, just not a grave matter. I personally try to abstain from meat and fast every Friday; I take it seriously, but it’s born out of love, not some grave obligation.

I am having a terribly difficult time accepting that God would view eating meat on a Friday during Lent a grave matter. At worst, I see it as a venial sin, and the worst it would do to a soul after death is extend their stay in purgatory.

This is only partly an issue of the intellect for me. It’s primarily a “gut” issue. Please help me out.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have problem accepting a Church teaching, and I’m trying to gain some insight. First of all, I’m a new, but faithful Catholic. I’m even discerning the priesthood/religious life, and plan on doing two-years of missionary work with the Capuchin Franciscans in Papua New Guinea.

My understanding is that eating meat on a Friday during Lent is a mortal sin. I have a very difficult time accepting this. I can’t see how the Lord of compassion and mercy would fling someone into an eternal lake of fire for eating meat on a Friday during Lent. It seems totally ridiculous and unreasonable to me.

Let me also say that I think the practice of not eating meat on Friday is a great spiritual practice, just not a grave matter. I personally try to abstain from meat and fast every Friday; I take it seriously, but it’s born out of love, not some grave obligation.

I am having a terribly difficult time accepting that God would view eating meat on a Friday during Lent a grave matter. At worst, I see it as a venial sin, and the worst it would do to a soul after death is extend their stay in purgatory.

This is only partly an issue of the intellect for me. It’s primarily a “gut” issue. Please help me out.

It’s not about meat per se; it’s about obedience to the Church.

Disobedience is where the sin arises.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Does anyone have a reference to this in Canon Law?

Dan

 

[Dorothy]

I have problem accepting a Church teaching, and I’m trying to gain some insight. First of all, I’m a new, but faithful Catholic. I’m even discerning the priesthood/religious life, and plan on doing two-years of missionary work with the Capuchin Franciscans in Papua New Guinea.

My understanding is that eating meat on a Friday during Lent is a mortal sin. I have a very difficult time accepting this. I can’t see how the Lord of compassion and mercy would fling someone into an eternal lake of fire for eating meat on a Friday during Lent. It seems totally ridiculous and unreasonable to me.

Let me also say that I think the practice of not eating meat on Friday is a great spiritual practice, just not a grave matter. I personally try to abstain from meat and fast every Friday; I take it seriously, but it’s born out of love, not some grave obligation.

I am having a terribly difficult time accepting that God would view eating meat on a Friday during Lent a grave matter. At worst, I see it as a venial sin, and the worst it would do to a soul after death is extend their stay in purgatory.

This is only partly an issue of the intellect for me. It’s primarily a “gut” issue. Please help me out.

I see following the rules for Lent as a matter of obedience. We do it because we love the Lord and do not mind inconveniencing ourselves to make a little act of mortification. If I were to decide to not follow that discipline because I don’t feel like it, to me it would be an act of rebellion towards the legitimate of authority of the Church.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

I see following the rules for Lent as a matter of obedience. We do it because we love the Lord and do not mind inconveniencing ourselves to make a little act of mortification. If I were to decide to not follow that discipline because I don’t feel like it, to me it would be an act of rebellion towards the legitimate of authority of the Church.

What did Christ say about the ‘little things’. Something about the little things are an indication of how the big things are handled?

It may be that in reality, this does not matter. If one is disobedient to the little demands, they won’t be obedient to the big ones, the ones that are really hard. The result would be the same.

Dan

 

[StCsDavid]

So you’re standing before the Lord and your whole life has been dedicated to His service and He says, “I would like to let you in, but there’s this little matter of the Big Mac you had on the second Friday of Lent back in '06. Sorry, no salvation for you.”

That I don’t really see happening. If, however, you knew that the Church required you to abstain and you took the attitude of “to heck with the church, I want a cheeseburger” then you have stepped into the realm of sin because your will is to go against the teaching of the Church. You freely step outside the communion of the faith and you stay there until you go to confession and reconcile yourself with Christ and His Church.

Another example. The Church teaches that contraception is wrong. Many Catholics know this, but buck the faith anyway in favor of their own will, wants and desires. They have chosen to go against the faith of their own free will. We pray that God will have mercy on their souls as they have freely stepped outside the communion of the faith.

Hope that helps

 

[christcnection1]

I see following the rules for Lent as a matter of obedience. We do it because we love the Lord and do not mind inconveniencing ourselves to make a little act of mortification. If I were to decide to not follow that discipline because I don’t feel like it, to me it would be an act of rebellion towards the legitimate of authority of the Church.

You can be in “rebellion” to the Church and it not be a grave matter. Even though I faithfully follow the Church’s teaching on this (and then some), I have a hard time accepting it’s a hell- worthy act of disobedience.

 

[dulcissima]

I think I am just going to quote a post that one of my friends here on CAF gave in response to this idea that seemingly small offenses like missing Mass or eating meat on Friday could cause us to merit eternal damnation. I think he makes the point better than I ever could, and to be honest has had me taking care to avoid those little dents and dings.

I know there are some who think God (and the Church) is some kind of scorekeeper who just looks for infractions that disqualify people from heaven. Eternal fire for missing a Holy Day of Obligation? For reading risqué novels? I suppose that could well be true, but maybe not for the reasons you presume. In and of themselves, do instances like blowing off mass or indulging the sexual imagination represent an intentional “in your face” rebellion against God and his plan for humanity? If so, then yes, I guess you could say by doing those things, we are choosing deliberately to remain outside of communion with God and His purposes. But I would suggest that we rarely do these things in an attitude of outright contempt for holiness. Mostly, they are more like small “dings” on a new car – small, careless little imperfections that nevertheless steadily deteriorate the car’s finish, and allow rust to take hold and destroy it. So you cannot really say, “If you get a ding on your car, it goes to the scrapyard;” but you can say, “If you don’t avoid or repair the dings, one day your car will surely go to the scrapyard.” It is not a threat of punishment, but of natural, unavoidable consequence.

 

[christcnection1]

Does anyone have a reference to this in Canon Law?

Dan

I tried to find something in “black and white,” but couldn’t locate it.

 

[LilyM]

You can be in “rebellion” to the Church and it not be a grave matter. Even though I faithfully follow the Church’s teaching on this (and then some), I have a hard time accepting it’s a hell- worthy act of disobedience.

Adam and Eve tainted their descendants with original sin for all time for each taking a bite of an apple. Aaron’s sons died for offering incense in an unprescribed manner and Uzzah for merely touching the Ark of the Covenant when all had been told not to. Clearly God is not big on even ‘minor’ disobedience to His explicit instructions.

He places importance on things like apples, incense and arks (and eating meat) for reasons we may not fully understand but must accept.

Nor is there usually such a thing as ‘minor’ disobedience in areas the Church has explicitly declared on, since we believe the Magisterium has been given the power to bind and loose heaven and earth. There are areas where our behaviour or beliefs aren’t so rigidly laid down, in those cases we’re free to do as we wish. Following the Church’s precepts on fasting and abstinence is not one of those cases.

 

[christcnection1]

Adam and Eve tainted their descendants with original sin for all time for each taking a bite of an apple. Aaron’s sons died for offering incense in an unprescribed manner and Uzzah for merely touching the Ark of the Covenant when all had been told not to.

The point being there isn’t any such thing as ‘minor’ disobedience to God’s explicit instructions.

Nor those of the Church, since we believe the Magisterium has been given the power to bind and loose heaven and earth. There are areas where our behaviour or beliefs aren’t so rigidly laid down, in those cases we’re free to do as we wish. Following the Church’s precepts on fasting and abstinence is not one of those cases.

Ohhh… I like that answer! These stories remind me of Ananias and Saphira in the book of Acts. This eye-opening account always plagued me as an Evangelical.

Although I still have some uncertainties, espcially seeing the Lord’s wisdom in the matter, your response holds a lot of weight in my heart and mind.

(Fortunately, I am walking in obedience, so this is not something you need to convince me to do.)

Thank you LilyM.

 

[christcnection1]

I think I am just going to quote a post that one of my friends here on CAF gave in response to this idea that seemingly small offenses like missing Mass or eating meat on Friday could cause us to merit eternal damnation. I think he makes the point better than I ever could, and to be honest has had me taking care to avoid those little dents and dings.

This is an effective analogy. Thank you!

 

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by Dan Grelinger
Does anyone have a reference to this in Canon Law?
Dan

Here are the provisions from canon law:

CHAPTER II.

Days of Penance

Can. 1249 The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons.

Can. 1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.

Can. 1251 Abstinence from meat, or from some other food as determined by the Episcopal Conference, is to be observed on all Fridays, unless a solemnity should fall on a Friday. Abstinence and fasting are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

Can. 1252 The law of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year. The law of fasting binds those who have attained their majority, until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Pastors of souls and parents are to ensure that even those who by reason of their age are not bound by the law of fasting and abstinence, are taught the true meaning of penance.

Can. 1253 The conference of bishops can determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence as well as substitute other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fast.

I don’t think this is generally an issue of mortal sin, though. For it to be a mortal sin, it needs to be a sin involving grave matter, committed with full knowledge of the sinner, with the sinner’s deliberate consent. So the usual problem of “Shoot! It’s Friday! I shouldn’t have eaten that burger!” is clearly not a mortal sin. I’m not even sure that deliberately consuming meat on Friday with full knowledge of the ban is a mortal sin, because I question whether “abstain from meat on a Friday” is really a grave matter. I mean, after all, murder and adultery it ain’t.

 

[christcnection1]

Here are the provisions from canon law:

I don’t think this is generally an issue of mortal sin, though. For it to be a mortal sin, it needs to be a sin involving grave matter, committed with full knowledge of the sinner, with the sinner’s deliberate consent. So the usual problem of “Shoot! It’s Friday! I shouldn’t have eaten that burger!” is clearly not a mortal sin. I’m not even sure that deliberately consuming meat on Friday with full knowledge of the ban is a mortal sin, because I question whether “abstain from meat on a Friday” is really a grave matter. I mean, after all, murder and adultery it ain’t.

I tend to agree with you, but LilyM makes several great points. Scroll up to check her response. What are your thoughts?

 

[Godfollower]

I tend to agree with you, but LilyM makes several great points. Scroll up to check her response. What are your thoughts?

I agree that original sin came from eating a particular fruit, but it wasn’t the fruit itself that was the problem; it was the intent underlying the eating of it (why eat? Because they wanted to be like gods). I don’t think I’m disagreeing with LilyM; clearly we’re supposed to obey God in matters both great and small. It’s just that the OP thought it was a mortal sin to eat meat on a Friday, and I was saying no, it isn’t.

Again, I’m not saying it’s okay to disobey the Church on this issue; it is only a disciplinary rule, and it is a matter of merely ecclesiastical law, but that doesn’t mean we’re free to disobey it. I’m just saying that you don’t put your mortal soul in jeopardy by snarfing a hot dog before you remember it’s Friday.

 

[christcnection1]

I agree that original sin came from eating a particular fruit, but it wasn’t the fruit itself that was the problem; it was the intent underlying the eating of it (why eat? Because they wanted to be like gods). I don’t think I’m disagreeing with LilyM; clearly we’re supposed to obey God in matters both great and small. It’s just that the OP thought it was a mortal sin to eat meat on a Friday, and I was saying no, it isn’t.

Again, I’m not saying it’s okay to disobey the Church on this issue; it is only a disciplinary rule, and it is a matter of merely ecclesiastical law, but that doesn’t mean we’re free to disobey it. I’m just saying that you don’t put your mortal soul in jeopardy by snarfing a hot dog before you remember it’s Friday.

hehe… I should hope not.

how after after you remember it’s Friday?

 

[Hellisreal]

I just change it to another penance on regular fridays outside of Lent.

Whats the big deal anyway. Its not like the SDA’s not letting people have coffee.

That is bizzare.

 

[christcnection1]

I just change it to another penance on regular fridays outside of Lent.

Whats the big deal anyway. Its not like the SDA’s not letting people have coffee.

That is bizzare.

It’s not a big deal for me to practice it. Like I said, I think it’s a great discipline!

I just don’t think it’s mortal sin.

Whats the big deal anyway.

If it’s not a big deal, then how can it be a mortal sin?

I don’t have an answer, but I know I would make a lousy SDA. I need my go juice in the morning to get the old motor running.

 

[Hellisreal]

I always simply looked at it as the Church decided that was the penance that would make people really aware of it as a family. At the dinner table when we are all together we are all together sharing that penance.

 

[christcnection1]

I always simply looked at it as the Church decided that was the penance that would make people really aware of it as a family. At the dinner table when we are all together we are all together sharing that penance.

Yeah, that’s a great way of looking at it.