God: A Failed Parent?

[ngill09]

Kids. Juveniles. Children. Breaking the law. (Presume thats why they made the news.)
Sounds like they need punishment for deliberate disobedience of the law.
God DOES punish sinners.
Problem solved.

When young people deliberately break the laws - laws which everyone else willingly obeys - then punishment awaits.
It’s pretty simple. Obey the law = happy. Disobey the law = punishment.
Why does God punish criminals (sinners)? Because if He didnt, then He would stand accused of being a bad parent. The other children would ask, how come rotten Johnny gets to smash our windows and steal our stuff and never gets punished?

I think you are equivocating on the meaning of the word “good”.
Free choice is not a character failure. Disbelieving God’s Word was a free choice.

Children are given a rule to brush their teeth. They are told why that rule exists. Loving parents warn their children that the consequences of failure to obey the rule (sin) is tooth decay.
Yes, the parents could theoretically hold the child down and pry open their mouth to brush the teeth every day until the child turns 21, but the idea is that the child
should brush THEIR OWN TEETH in their own enlightened self-interest.

As long as one has free will, one will be able to choose to do wrong by being disobedient, such as in the case with Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had intellect combined with free will; he was able to decide whether or not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of which God informed of them not to eat.

If God did not permit this choice of disobedience, how could His people be worshipping him to the fullest without also being able to be disobedient? One does not praise the inanimate object for doing its job (as in the case of the automated robot, for instance) but instead it’s creator; therefore, if people do not have free will, they are being forced to worship and be obedient to God, but with free will they are doing an action of their own accord: something worthy of praising God’s glory. This is God’s intention.

Free will is not an excuse but a fact. I think that God gives us free will and allows us to keep it because God wants us to love him because we in fact actually love God, not because we’re little puppets whose strings he tugs to make us all feel a certain way. Even if we are willing to love God, I am sure that God could force us to love him far more than we are actually capable of doing so but does not for the same exact reason in that our free will is something that God values.

What is it with Catholics on this forum that they can’t read and understand any post? I specifically said that this was not an issue of free will, but of character. In fact, my entire OP and analogy to human parenting makes no sense without free will. I say that a parent doesn’t need to violate his/her child’s free will in order to provide good guidance and you then say that God did not provide guidance because to do so would turn them into robots or puppets. Seriously? This is not about forcing someone to do follow your orders. This is about teaching your child - your creation- right from wrong. Many fallible human parents on Earth are able to get their kids to be good without turning them into robots, but through proper instruction, guidance, and leadership. According to Christian theology, God was incapable of doing that.

The offspring of good human parents have the free will to disobey. But they don’t, because they have had good parenting to develop good moral character.

And don’t run to the Free Will excuse. A parent does not need to use mind control to raise a good child. Yes, Adam used his free will to disobey God, but why was Adam’s character such that he thought it a good idea to disobey God? How do you account for Adam’s character failures when he had God as a parent and creator?

 

[DannyGR]

What is it with Catholics on this forum that they can’t read and understand any post? I specifically said that this was not an issue of free will, but of character. In fact, my entire OP and analogy to human parenting makes no sense without free will. I say that a parent doesn’t need to violate his/her child’s free will in order to provide good guidance and you then say that God did not provide guidance because to do so would turn them into robots or puppets. Seriously? This is not about forcing someone to do follow your orders. This is about teaching your child - your creation- right from wrong. **Many fallible human parents on Earth are able to get their kids to be good without turning them into robots, but through proper instruction, guidance, and leadership. According to Christian theology, God was incapable of doing that.

The offspring of good human parents have the free will to disobey. But they don’t, because they have had good parenting to develop good moral character.**

I did the bolding.

Your arguement is basically why would someone do the wrong thing, such as sin against God? Because he wanted to eat of the Tree, he rationalized and made this decision with the use of free will and intellect. Some of the kids with good parents end up bad, some of the kids with bad parents end up good.

There are kids of there with great parents that go wrong; why not the same with God? His perfect parenting doesn’t make his children 100% always obedient. Why? Because no matter what influence we have, we can still choose to do otherwise.

 

[ngill09]

I did the bolding.

Your arguement is basically why would someone do the wrong thing, such as sin against God? Because he wanted to eat of the Tree, he rationalized and made this decision with the use of free will and intellect. Some of the kids with good parents end up bad, some of the kids with bad parents end up good.

There are kids of there with great parents that go wrong; why not the same with God? His perfect parenting doesn’t make his children 100% always obedient. Why? Because no matter what influence we have, we can still choose to do otherwise.

Again, the question is not whether you can choose otherwise, but why you would choose otherwise, if God was as good as is claimed.

 

[zro_x]

What is it with Catholics on this forum that they can’t read and understand any post? I specifically said that this was not an issue of free will, but of character. In fact, my entire OP and analogy to human parenting makes no sense without free will. I say that a parent doesn’t need to violate his/her child’s free will in order to provide good guidance and you then say that God did not provide guidance because to do so would turn them into robots or puppets. Seriously? This is not about forcing someone to do follow your orders. This is about teaching your child - your creation- right from wrong. Many fallible human parents on Earth are able to get their kids to be good without turning them into robots, but through proper instruction, guidance, and leadership. According to Christian theology, God was incapable of doing that.

The offspring of good human parents have the free will to disobey. But they don’t, because they have had good parenting to develop good moral character.

In the first place, I don’t care how good the human teacher is, there are some cases where children with truly exceptional parents turn out rotten, because of the free will of the child.

In any decision a person makes, there are always two influences: a person’s character and a person’s free will. But even though both influence a person’s decisions, a person’s character does not influence their free will-- the free will is truly free, and independent of any other factors, including upbringing, genetics, even knowledge. Look at it this way: a person’s character is developed to a certain degree. in order to make an evil choice, they have to summon the will necessary to override their character. This is why people with good character usually make good decisions, and people with bad character tend to make bad decisions. But those with good character commit a greater sin by commiting evil actions than those with bad character who commit equally evil actions. We are not judged by our actions, but by our wills.

Adam and Eve had impeccable character; in fact, their character, like Mary’s, could not possibly have been better. But Adam, Eve, and Mary all had the option to raise enough willpower to make an action against their character. The former two did, and the latter didn’t.

 

[zro_x]

Again, the question is not whether you can choose otherwise, but why you would choose otherwise, if God was as good as is claimed.

You would have no reason to do otherwise. Our will is not affected by either reason or emotion. That’s my take, anyway.

 

[Ion]

God’s failures as a leader don’'t end with Adam, however. The Old Testament recounts God’s frustrated attempts at getting the Israelites to follow Him. However, He frequently finds Himself being out-competed by non-existent gods. How bad of a leader would you have to be to have those you want to follow you abandon you for someone who doesn’t even exist? The God of the Old Testament seems to be utterly incompetent as a leader.

Non-existent gods indeed, there is only one God. But there are evil spirits and temptations…

 

[SachieWhitby]

Love that is not free is a contradiction in terms. God’s animals are neither puppets nor robots, nonetheless God wills His animals directly. Human beings, on the other hand, while on earth, He gives free will, and in our fallen state we also have concupiscence. Therefore we have to struggle to do good, and overcome ourselves. And if we do so for the sake of Love, there is a very great reward. The reward of Love is More Love.

I’m of the opinion that animals have far more free will than some might credit them for based on observing my own cats. There are five cats: Rikku, Duke Ellington, Ginger, Mimi and Ziggy. Mimi is hated completely by the other four cats because she’s punched them all in the face. Ginger has an alliance with Duke Ellington and Ziggy such that she’ll approach Mimi in this triangle formation wit the two males behind her. The males spread out and circle around until they’ve flanked Mimi and drive her into a corner thus making it possible for them to surround Mimi, with her having no means of escape. I cannot say what happens next because that’s about when I break it up.

However if these cats can come up with their own cat version of military strategy, then I would go so far as to speculate that they have their own version of free will without God controlling them either directly or indirectly.

I can assure you that there’s no copies of The Art of War or any other book involving military strategy that the cats might be secretly reading when I’m not home.

 

[DannyGR]

Again, the question is not whether you can choose otherwise, but why you would choose otherwise, if God was as good as is claimed.

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves., NIV

They wanted to be like God; they thought they could disobey Him. Eve then rationalized this decision despite knowing its wrong by thinking about how the fruit was “…good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom…”

They were selfish, disobedient; a similar example would be how a child with unspeakable wealth within his family can get a sense of entitlement, where even with all the wealth he has, it just is not enough in the child’s opinions.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m of the opinion that animals have far more free will than some might credit them for based on observing my own cats. There are five cats: Rikku, Duke Ellington, Ginger, Mimi and Ziggy. Mimi is hated completely by the other four cats because she’s punched them all in the face. Ginger has an alliance with Duke Ellington and Ziggy such that she’ll approach Mimi in this triangle formation wit the two males behind her. The males spread out and circle around until they’ve flanked Mimi and drive her into a corner thus making it possible for them to surround Mimi, with her having no means of escape. I cannot say what happens next because that’s about when I break it up.

However if these cats can come up with their own cat version of military strategy, then I would go so far as to speculate that they have their own version of free will without God controlling them either directly or indirectly.

I can assure you that there’s no copies of The Art of War or any other book involving military strategy that the cats might be secretly reading when I’m not home.

A fascinating example of why animals are not biological machines operated entirely by their environment. They may not have free will but they are certainly have developmental plasticity!

 

[DannyGR]

Is nigil going to respond?

 

[ngill09]

Is nigil going to respond?

Sure.

Your post simply exemplifies the problem I’ve posed.

According to you, and the Bible, it was the character of Adam and Eve to be selfish and disobedient, like spoiled children. That children are spoiled speaks to their poor parentage. If Adam and Eve had such terrible character flaws, then that reflects on who created them and who instructed them. The being responsible for this was God. Either his instruction was flawed or lacking, both are as inexcusable as bad human parenting.

 

[zro_x]

According to you, and the Bible, it was the character of Adam and Eve to be selfish and disobedient, like spoiled children.

As far as I know, the bible says nothing about Adam and Eve’s character. It only talks about their actions.

That children are spoiled speaks to their poor parentage. If Adam and Eve had such terrible character flaws, then that reflects on who created them and who instructed them. The being responsible for this was God. Either his instruction was flawed or lacking, both are as inexcusable as bad human parenting.

As I’ve mentioned, a person’s actions reflect the character of the person and the free will of the person, but the character and free will are two totally completely different parts of a person, and they do not affect each other, though they do affect our actions. Actions are a function of two things: our free will and our character. If we strongly will evil, and have a bad character, then our actions will be evil. If we strongly will evil but have a good character than the action a person would take is not as clear cut. That’s why people who have good characters tend to also make good decisions, because it doesn’t require as much strength of the will for them to do the right thing.

 

[ngill09]

Why would someone of good character will themselves to do evil? The point is that character informs your will.

 

[zro_x]

Why would someone of good character will themselves to do evil? The point is that character informs your will.

no it doesn’t. At least, not the way I look at it. the will can not be informed, and its will is not based on anything that makes up our character: our upbringing, our gentetics, even knowledge. Our will is not affected by our character; only our actions are.

 

[ngill09]

no it doesn’t. At least, not the way I look at it. the will can not be informed, and its will is not based on anything that makes up our character: our upbringing, our gentetics, even knowledge. Our will is not affected by our character; only our actions are.

Let me put this in different terms to clarify.

What you want to do is based on your values, correct?

Therefore, what Adam and Eve wanted to do was based on their values. Adam and Eve wanted to do something which was evil, so it can be inferred that their values were evil, or at least were not opposed to evil.

Now, where do you get your values?

 

[LilyM]

Again, the question is not whether you can choose otherwise, but why you would choose otherwise, if God was as good as is claimed.

For the same reasons that the children of even the wisest and most wonderful parents choose to disobey them. Like it or not, children ARE independent beings, and parents, however good, are NOT the only influences on the character of a child.

If nothing else, Adam and Eve may have seen animals eating the fruit and not being harmed, and so wrongly thought, aided by the Devil’s suggestion, that it would not harm them either and that they’re benefit from it.

Doing wrong does not automatically require that either one’s upbringing be bad - it requires but one wrong choice. And even the best human is still human, finite in wisdom and self-control. All the best raising and upbringing in the world won’t give a human being infinite wisdom and self-control.

 

[ngill09]

For the same reasons that the children of even the wisest and most wonderful parents choose to disobey them. Like it or not, children ARE independent beings, and parents, however good, are NOT the only influences on the character of a child.

If nothing else, Adam and Eve may have seen animals eating the fruit and not being harmed, and so wrongly thought, aided by the Devil’s suggestion, that it would not harm them either and that they’re benefit from it.

Doing wrong does not automatically require that either one’s upbringing be bad - it requires but one wrong choice. And even the best human is still human, finite in wisdom and self-control. All the best raising and upbringing in the world won’t give a human being infinite wisdom and self-control.

So you suggest that the eternal crime of Adam and Eve, for which all people are born damned, might have been done out of ignorance? Because they didn’t know any better? Why, then, should they be held as sinful that action?

 

[zro_x]

Let me put this in different terms to clarify.

What you want to do is based on your values, correct?

Therefore, what Adam and Eve wanted to do was based on their values. Adam and Eve wanted to do something which was evil, so it can be inferred that their values were evil, or at least were not opposed to evil.

Now, where do you get your values?

We get our values from two different sources. One source is our parents, and the other is our own will, which is completely independent of any outside factors.

 

[LilyM]

So you suggest that the eternal crime of Adam and Eve, for which all people are born damned, might have been done out of ignorance? Because they didn’t know any better? Why, then, should they be held as sinful that action?

Ignorance? No. They knew and ought to have trusted what God had told them, and chose not to listen and justified their actions by their own inferior reasoning.

Just like I ought to trust my doctor if he or she tells me that I will develop health problems if I do not eat healthily, instead of modelling my behaviour on my skinny friend who seemingly can eat whatever he or she wants without consequence.

Misguided but ultimately wilful and therefore culpable. And nothing to do with how my parents raised me!

My main point was that God/our parents are not the only factors influencing our character and choices.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

The good or bad behavior of a person reflects on their parents, and for good reason.

It might, but parents are not the sole factor influencing their children. Good parents can raise children that turn out to be bad people.

I actually think the parent metaphor is not a good metaphor for Yahweh’s relationship with humans. There’s too many variances between parents (or many other close relatives) and Yahweh in what the behaviour will be in certain scenarios that deal with saving a child from physical (and some times emotional) harm that end up culminating to the view of God as a dead beat dad should the metaphor continue to be applied. Seems like some where there is a better metaphor