T
Truthstalker
Guest
Using scholastic terminology:
Is God without Form, is Form intrinsic to God, does God beget Form, or what?
Is God without Form, is Form intrinsic to God, does God beget Form, or what?
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P
Psychotheosophy
Guest
There is
a form of a man
and a form of a tree
each are different
but both have the same
principle of Form
Remove Form
And we have deformity, like cancer
Or disintegration, like death
So we naturally seek Form
A particle is not a man
But
Form the particles
into the form of a man
And a man is created
Therefore
Form gives Existence
By Forming
Since nothing precedes Existence
Form is Existence
Since God is Existence
God is Form
Q
quaestio
Guest
God’s essence (form) is to be, hence essence and existence are identical in God.
M
MindOverMatter
Guest
What does one mean by the word “form” here?
God has no form.
He has no shape
He has no dimension
Form is given by God.
God is simply being.
God has no form.
He has no shape
He has no dimension
Form is given by God.
God is simply being.
J
JDaniel
Guest
Another very interesting question. It appears that form for God is something different than it is for living, biological things. Or, perhaps it’s not. Perhaps it is something we can comparatively abstract from what it means to biological beings, although we can’t fully comprehend it.
What is the shape of infinite? What is the dimension of dimension?
God bless you,
JD
F
frankblahnik
Guest
It depends on how you define the word “form”…
–the phonological or orthographic sound or appearance of a word that can be used to describe or identify something; "the inflected forms of a word …
–kind: a category of things distinguished by some common characteristic or quality; “sculpture is a form of art”; “what kinds of desserts are there?”
–a perceptual structure; “the composition presents problems for students of musical form”; “a visual pattern must include not only objects but the spaces between them”
–shape: any spatial attributes (especially as defined by outline); “he could barely make out their shapes”
–human body: alternative names for the body of a human being; “Leonardo studied the human body”; “he has a strong physique”; “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”
–shape: the spatial arrangement of something as distinct from its substance; “geometry is the mathematical science of shape”
–the visual appearance of something or someone; “the delicate cast of his features”
–a printed document with spaces in which to write; “he filled out his tax form”
–(biology) a group of organisms within a species that differ in trivial ways from similar groups; “a new strain of microorganisms”
–create (as an entity); “social groups form everywhere”; “They formed a company”
–an arrangement of the elements in a composition or discourse; “the essay was in the form of a dialogue”; “he first sketches the plot in outline form”
–to compose or represent:“This wall forms the background of the stage setting”; “The branches made a roof”; “This makes a fine introduction”
–a particular mode in which something is manifested; “his resentment took the form of extreme hostility”
–develop into a distinctive entity; “our plans began to take shape”
–phase: (physical chemistry) a distinct state of matter in a system; matter that is identical in chemical composition and physical state and separated from other material by the phase boundary; “the reaction occurs in the liquid phase of the system”
–class: a body of students who are taught together; “early morning classes are always sleepy”
–shape: give shape or form to; “shape the dough”; “form the young child’s character”
–an ability to perform well; “he was at the top of his form”; “the team was off form last night”
–shape: make something, usually for a specific function; “She molded the rice balls carefully”; “Form cylinders from the dough”; “shape a figure”; “Work the metal into a sword”
–imprint: establish or impress firmly in the mind; “We imprint our ideas onto our children”
–mannequin: a life-size dummy used to display clothes
–assume a form or shape; “the water formed little beads”
–a mold for setting concrete; “they built elaborate forms for pouring the foundation”
M
MindOverMatter
Guest
- It seems to me that a true infinite has no shape, for it is not the produce of numbers. It simply is.
- A dimension is what ever form it takes (space/time/energy). Dimensions exists only because there such a thing as Pure-Existence. Dimensions have only the potential to exist as dimensions in regards to Pure-Being, and therefore are not ultimate because dimension cannot transcend that which it needs to be as it is.
God is a bit like the idea of an orange in your mind. The idea of the orange has no temporal spatial location, and yet it is produced by a being that has a temporal location. God is everywhere, and at the same time know where in particulor!
J
JDaniel
Guest
Plus at least one more: form in the the sense that Aristotle and Aquinas meant it: (a) that which “gives” anima, (b) that which creates potentially infinite differentiation, or uniqueness, among beings, and, finally, (c) that which, together with primary matter, creates a soul.
God bless you,
JD
J
JDaniel
Guest
Oops! I should have asked, "What is the dimension of infinite?
I know your answer and I sort of concur with both of them. However, we are told that we (humans) have been “made in His image and likeness.” Yet, we do not appear to be infinite in appearance.
We do need the thread opener to be more specific in what was meant in the OP by “form”.
God bless you,
JD
M
MindOverMatter
Guest
Im not sure that even in this sense that form can be associeted Gods being. If form is defined as that which instantaneously gives actuality to being; then it certainly cannot be use in regards to Gods being; for nothing can transcend Existence; and neither can existence be caused because of something else. Existence exists because thats what it is by nature; “Existence”. God simply is. Hence my rejection of the idea that God has form.
I not very familia with all of Aquinas’ work, because i find it to hard to understand. But didn’t Aquinas reject the idea that God has a form?
J
JDaniel
Guest
True, our infinite God cannot have a form as Infinity is formless.
What do you think of Psychotheosophy’s conclusion, in Post #2 above?
God bless,
JD
M
MindOverMatter
Guest
He does give an interesting conclusion; but it doesn’t fit with the other facts. If God was the form of things, then we would fall into some kind of pantheism; for God would merely be a transcendent phantom of the Universe. I don’t think its neccesary. Perhaps its better to think that form is the “eternal idea” upon which the Universe is formed? It is the idea of the universe that makes the universe a Universe.
Again; i can’t accept that form is God.
Peace.
F
frankblahnik
Guest
God is more than form, but His form fills the universe? 
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JDaniel
Guest
In my opinion, as it stands right now, I would tend to agree with Psychotheosophy almost completely. The only difference would be with that part of his proposition that spoke of particles, but, even that is almost completely acceptable to me.
Aquinas (and Aristotle) preceived form to mean more than just what we mean by “life” (anima). I’m pretty sure they would have included “existence” in their overall definition. Thus, God would not have (possess) Form, but, He would be Form.
Now, if God is Form, abstracted as “existence”, then as Form the world (universe) would not necessarily be a “part” of Him although each existent thing would have Him within it. It’s difficult for me to understand God, as infinite, can have the Universe to co-exist sort of outside of Him.
God bless,
JD
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JDaniel
Guest
Yes, but, if Existence = Form would this not be at least an Attribute of His?God is more than form, but His form fills the universe?
God bless,
JD
M
MindOverMatter
Guest
God certainly formed the Universe. This i agree with. But does it really stand to reason to think that God is the form that is the Universe? What does it mean to say that God is the form of the Universe? The “eternal idea” hypothesis seems a better solution. Plus Aquinas did not take into account things such as the Evolution of the Universe. In evolutionary terms, God has created the Universe to develop its own forms to some degree. The form cannot merely be considered in terms of a complete and distinct life form. There is “changing” of forms, and hence, form isn’t any particular being or shape but rather the principle that governs it. It would seem to me that God formed principles of behavior and being (Natural Laws) which lead to the Universe we have now. Given these considerations, is not the Natural Principle of any Created being the “form”? It seems to me that God creates or generates the principles of the Universe, according to Gods being, and then allows the universal forms to take shape according to Law. Are we now to say that God changes?
Remember one important fact, Jesus, the Eternally Begotten Son, took on the “form” of man.
You are very correct to say that God permeates all things, for nothing can have being outside of being. But I still don’t quite grasp the sense of saying that God is form.
Something has the form of an apple. Is God an apple? Maybe I misunderstand. I will be humble now untill i understand fully what one means by form…
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frankblahnik
Guest
Yes. Gods form fills the universe=Gods existence fills the universe. And God is more than form/existence.God is more than form, but His form fills the universe?
JDaniel:
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frankblahnik
Guest
This missing variable in this equation is Love. God is love. Love has no form/existence. Love just is…
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JDaniel
Guest
OK. Try not to think of the meaning of form in its current concept. Think of it as being much more pregnant with meaning. Consider the difference between form that is substantial and form that is accidental.
In its substantial form, form would be the essence of existence. In this sense it is an intrinsic determinate (as well) of a thing rather than an accidental or extrinsic determinate of a thing.
As an intrinsic determinate, it has nothing to do with shape, size, dimension, etc. These are accidental and extrinsic to a thing. But, existence is a substantial and intrinsic (within the thing, or, of its essence) determinate of a thing. Understood like this, God can be Form, just as Man-in-existence is Form.
Think of it as that which is more closely “owned” by the subject (thing), but, under the same general heading of “determinates”.
I hope this makes sense!
God bless,
JD
J
JDaniel
Guest
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