God and Form

[MindOverMatter]

OK. Try not to think of the meaning of form in its current concept. Think of it as being much more pregnant with meaning. Consider the difference between form that is substantial and form that is accidental.

In its substantial form, form would be the essence of existence. In this sense it is an intrinsic determinate (as well) of a thing rather than an accidental or extrinsic determinate of a thing.

As an intrinsic determinate, it has nothing to do with shape, size, dimension, etc. These are accidental and extrinsic to a thing. But, existence is a substantial and intrinsic (within the thing, or, of its essence) determinate of a thing. Understood like this, God can be Form, just as Man-in-existence is Form.

Think of it as that which is more closely “owned” by the subject (thing), but, under the same general heading of “determinates”.

I hope this makes sense!

God bless,
JD

It was very well put. Being somebody who likes to write creative stories, i very much liked the creative term you used;“Pregnant with meaning.”

But …While i agree with your definition of intrinsic form, it is your definition alone that shows us that the form of God is not the same form that is understood as the form of man or the form of the Universe. Correct?

 

[frankblahnik]

God shaped the universe with all its physical laws and filled it with His spiritual *form/existence *as an expression of His Love.

 

[JDaniel]

It was very well put. Being somebody who likes to write creative stories, i very much liked the creative term you used;“Pregnant with meaning.”

But …While i agree with your definition of intrinsic form, it is your definition alone that shows us that the form of God is not the same form that is understood as the form of man or the form of the Universe. Correct?

True. EXCEPT in the singular case of the “determinate” we call existence (form). In that determinate alone, we share an attribute with God.

I also mean “determinate” in its much more pregnant meaning, not as limiting in the sense of diminishing, but, in the sense of knowing what something is by its essense(s) (essential attributes) and its accidental (non-essential) attributes.

For example, we know Tom is a tall man with a ruddy complexion and red hair. The first two determinates are intrinsic while the second two are extrinsic. The determinate of existence is understood, otherwise we would not know who or what we were talking about.

Thus, God is Omnipotent, Omniscient AND existent. All three are determinates of HIM. In fact, He has no extrinsic (accidental) determinates. But, as you can see, the subject must have existence as well as the determinates must have existence. (Although, there are immaterial determinates in man, such “love” and “goodness”.)

God bless,
JD

 

[cpayne]

Using scholastic terminology:

Is God without Form, is Form intrinsic to God, does God beget Form, or what?

Hi, Truthstalker. Haven’t heard from you for a while.

Notice that Truthstalker narrowed the field considerably with the OP: He specified, “Using SCHOLASTIC TERMINOLOGY.” So a lot of the discussion here of terminology seems to miss his focus.

JDaniel is on the Scholastic mark with the distinction between substantial form and shape. God wouldn’t have any kind of shape. He would, however, have a substantial form, one of the characteristics of which is (for God) existence in itself.

God also grants other beings to possess form / substance / soul, and hence to ultimately reach a terminal “shape.” However, in our cases, existence comes from God, so it would not be intrinsic to our form, as it is in God’s case. God’s existence is intrinsic; ours is a gift from Him.

Too much thinking before supper. See you all later.

 

[cpayne]

Found it! Summa Theologica I.3.2:

“Every agent acts by its form; hence the manner in which it has its form is the manner in which it is an agent. Therefore whatever is primarily and essentially an agent must be primarily and essentially form. Now God is the first agent, since He is the first efficient cause. He is therefore of His essence a form; and not composed of matter and form.”

 

[Truthstalker]

Ah. Thank you.

So then the wider question: does essence and form and thought and will and action and substance - all of which are without division in God in His simplicity - actually come from God, who is unknowable and only revealed in Christ, and hence these things are of the Second Person of the Trinity, or are they intrinsic to God the Father? Did the Father beget these things in the Son IOW?